Tony. I once did a kid show in Liverpool at an exhibition. The kids ran off with all my props never to be seen again. Yes. That city is definitely an Irish one. I do have to confess that Irish kids are the best thieves in the world. They beat the British hands down in that department. I have never seen anything like it in my life. They have it down to a fine art. Slydini was supposed to be good at misdirection but he was a pure amateur compared to those Irish kids. And if I hear the usual grunts about "racism" from anyone I bet Tony who actually IS Irish will probably confirm what I just said. Dublin is actually the worst but the Tralee Festival was pretty bad too. And when I say kids I mean children aged from 8 to 12 years old.

The problem with broad, sweeping generalizations is that they are overly general, therefore, in most cases, inaccurate. I know this isn't rocket science we're talking about here, but an assertion that there's a UK style and that it's superior to our plodding, humorless, pedantic American style ought to be backed up by some sort of evidence. I'm seeking evidence that there is a British style, and an American style, and that the UK approach is not only discernibly different, but actually better. So, in my search for this evidence I found Mark's video on You Tube, hoping to see some of this superiority, something that sets his style apart from my mediocre American kidshow stuff...

If I may be so bold (speaking as I am from the point of view of a heavy-handed American) as to offer a suggestion to a British magician. I think you should abandon your effort to be more American, Mark, it's dull and unoriginal. I definitely think you should start employing the UK approach, whatever that is. I might suggest you watch some Magic George videos. He's Irish, but has developed a good sense of humor by having to put up with the British being in his backyard.

George ain't Irish. He is from Yorkshire. Same place as Kimmo. And even if he were Irish he would be from Northern Ireland. And saying to certain Irish people in Northern Ireland that they are Irish can get you killed but perhaps we had better not go there.

But all right. Put up a videoclip of an American kids entertainer that hasn't gone over to the British methods as many of them have. The reason you think the British style is the same as the American one is thatin the last few years Americans have begun to do things the British way but don't realise it. Ten years ago you wouldn't have seen it.

And then put up a British performer's video. In the name of God though, please don't put up a video of the Amazing Stephen from Manchester or my whole case will be blown to pieces. Someone like Jolly Roger would be good. He is reading this thread and deriving great joy over it. He would be absolutely delirous with pleasure if someone put his video up.

Oh, Stephen, yes, geez, we agree on something Mark. I won't do that.

The problem is that you are asserting that the Brits somehow invented comedy in kids entertainment. And you imply that an American kidshow guy who uses more comedy than magic, and encourages a loud and boisterous audience response is somehow intentionally or inadvertantly copying the British. This is just nosense.

Here's a guy I know pretty well who is fairly original and developed this act without ever having purchased a magic DVD or attended a magic convention. The only magic books he's read (until recently) are Tarbell's. This act was developed originally in 1993 in Amarillo, Texas, far, far, far from any other children's entertainers, British or otherwise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN31BL5CaFU

Regardless of what you may think of it... it IS about the comedy, it DOES encourage loud responses from the kids, and except for the Rabbit-in-the-Hat routine, it is completely original. Also, the basic act is well over ten years old. "Ten years ago you wouldn't have seen it." Except in Amarillo, Tx.

Here's some British guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PB3wQz-Md4

You are DEFINITELY working in the American style. There is nothing remotely British in what you do. I am not saying it is bad. I am merely saying you are working in the American style.

And I think you misunderstand what I mean when I say "comedy". Americans do indeed include comedy but it is not traditional pantomime comedy. You are NOT working in the British style in any way, shape or form.
Sorry, old chap.

I would agree that I am working in AN American style, but not THE American style because my point is that there really isn't one American style. There may well be more of a traditionally British style, you'd know better than I, but I don't think there is a truly definitive American style of kids entertainment. The difference probably does come from a longer and richer history of kids entertainment in England than in the US. You guys are more established. I do recognize that. But as I said, my style is influenced by a lot of different comedians, mostly older vaudeville guys. My influences come from various countries.. Britain, Spain, Mexico... Brooklyn. But THAT'S what makes it American, not because I was watching and learning from David Ginn or David Kaye or any other influential American kidshow guy, but because my influences are so diverse, like many things American. The style is my own... but.. there's no "message", there's no great reliance on "wonder" or magic tricks generally, there's lots of kids reacting loudly, it's funny (at least the kids seem to think so), it's silly.. but it's not British. I wasn't trying to adopt a British style. I'm just trying to be original and funny. My argument is with you taking the most pedestrian examples you can think of, labelling that the "American Style" and lumping us all together.

Posted: Jul 12, 2011 1:59am
Here's Potty, by the way...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw933NoTy0o

Honestly, I think his style is closer to mine than it is to yours. Maybe I'm more British than you think, old chap.

After working both sides of the Atlantic I'd say the differences are:-

UK - younger kids expect pantomime style humour (sometimes rude) and a little bit of magic - sadly most UK kids shows seem to be for under-7s (or children acting in that way). 2 1/4 hour parties are well-received by the stressed parents. School shows are rare and only for entertainment. I can think of only two school show entertainers in the UK (and they aren't that busy)

USA - in school's it's all "Magic with a message" (in order to pay the mortgage) - some entertainers are a lot better than others at delivering this -

India / Far East - emphasis on producing lots of boxes etc with little patter

My own style is evolving with bits of both, due to the audiences I work with.

I am glad this podcast has generated some debate. Encourages me to do more similar podcasts for children and family show entertainers.

Brendan

It isn't your podcast that has aroused debate. It is Mark Lewis causing trouble that has done it. And I do wish that video of Potty the Pirate had not been shown. I haven't watched for fear of what I may have to witness. I will say however that Potty is definitely in the British camp.

I actually forced myself to watch Potty just now and thanks be to God he did not indulge in his usual vulgarites. He seems much more flamboyant than Mr Pitts. Definitely British style.

I agree. Who does Brendan think he is taking credit for his hours of editing and organising to put together this podcast? It's all down to Mark mentioning it.

Great podcast. I enjoyed it. I have always said that one of the reasons David's book was so successful (aswell as the excellent writing and solid routines) is that he was able to explain the UK methods of entertaining in a succinct, easy to understand way to the US market.

I didn't see many pantomimes or punch shows so I feel I learnt the UK methods via supreme manuscripts. Which was kind of nice because rather than reading 'do this, do that' I discovered the methods that work from reading them put into practise.

Edwin of Supreme Magic had a lot to do with the obvious superiority of British performers. Alas now that Supreme have gone, the British have become worse and the Americans are catching up. We are still ahead though. I alone will carry the standard forward. Which reminds me. I think it is about time we had Jolly Roger back here. If I can return so can he since he causes far less trouble than I do.

Don't make him a VIP though. His ego is massive enough as it is.

If there was a competition to find out which country has the worst magicians we would easily win.

Who let that juggler in here? The only thing more insufferable than an juggler would be a British juggler. They'd be completely intolerable. As it is we'll have to put up with Al, turncoat that he is.

Genuine thanks to Brendan though, I truly did enjoy the interview.

David
You are absolutely right ever since I started posting here I have found the UK magicians to be both civil, and funny. Of course your opinions of jugglers does not deter me from liking you. LOL

There's no accounting for taste.

If I may chime in.... My own experience, which is definitely from "out in left field", seems to confirm that there are different styles on both sides of the Atlantic. Here's my story; you be the judge.

After I translated "Performing Magic for Children", I asked Richard Lyn, Toronto's top children's entertainer for decades, to help me adapt it for North American magicians (since I'm a card-and-story guy who knows nothing about kid shows). Richard was very impressed with the book because it describes almost exactly the UK style of performing (the book was written by German magicians). Being a card-and-story guy, I cleverly replied: "Huh?" So Richard explained the differences between the North American and English approaches. It turns out that he learned the British way, from UK magicians and books, and the time he spent in England, performing and honing his craft. He became aware of the different styles from observing North American magicians perform, attending lectures and reading books.

Richard also attributes his success in part to the UK approach, which he finds more engaging. To give you an idea of Richard's success: more than once, I've seen people stop him on the street, telling him how they remember him doing a show for them when they were children (and often, how that led them to hire him, years later, to do a show for THEIR children).

After I published the book, I sent out review copies. The Linking Ring review was lukewarm -- not because of the book itself, but because the reviewer didn't like my ad (which he actually states in the review). So he proceeded to belittle the book. The overall tone is quite disparaging, but if you look at his specific objections, all of them are about beliefs that differ from North American views. (For the record: they're not even about magic. He didn't object to any of the core material, only to a few peripheral points.)

Normally, when a new product comes out, sales are brisk for a while, then they taper off. This was not the case for "Performing Magic for Children". Perhaps it was because of the LR review, perhaps not, but sales were like a continuous trickle for a long time. I got frequent small wholesale orders and less frequent individual orders.

A few years later, I started getting a steady stream of individual orders, all from the UK. Some were from very well-known kid show performers, others were from non-magician children's entertainers (clowns, jugglers, 'ballooners', etc.). A few of the big names even wrote to me later, telling me how much they would've liked to have such a book when they started out, because it would've helped them avoid years of trial and error (but for some reason, they seem reluctant to acknowledge this publicly.)

This was all amazing to me. What had happened? I can only guess that someone -- or several someones -- in Britain 'discovered' the book and spread the word that this is THE book to get to learn the craft. The English way -- even if it's all the way from Germany

In the end, I sold about as many copies though the continuous trickle as I would have if it had followed the standard new-product pattern (and it's still selling). But only because it became popular in the UK. So I can't help but wonder: if the book is so good, why hasn't it been 'discovered' on this side of the Atlantic? Could it be precisely because it's different from the North American approach -- which implies that there are different styles?

For the record, I have it on good authority that a certain 'silly' magician -- who shall remain nameless -- privately gave the book high praise shortly after it came out. Telling? Coincidence?

Thank you for reading!

Very interesting. I find that magic show's for babies gets mixed up with magic shows for children.
So the very english 'who is a silly sausage then?' type stuff will get sneered
at by older children.
For an older child some of the American and Canadian magicians are hard to beat!

Al still likes me, despite my best efforts to dissuade him. There IS no accounting for taste.

Interesting post Arielf. Is the book still available?

Arielf
Richard Lyn is in a class by himself, and he simply can not be compared to anyone, which makes Mark Lewis the second best magician in Toronto.

David
There are many members of the magic Café who don't like me, so take a number, and get in line. LOL