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Vincero Veteran user New Zealand 379 Posts |
Let my start by saying that this in NOT a thread about whether it is right or wrong to cheat. I don't want it turning into one either.
My interests lie in finding out HOW gamblers justify cheating. Of course, you don't have to be a real life cheater, or even an advocate of cheating to contribute to this thread. I'm just after as many different reasonings as possible. I've been reading a few of Michel de Montaigne's essays recently and some of the topics he discusses are really intriguing. "On Cheating" could be a good tribute. I'll get the ball rolling: 1) Cheating could be justifiable because the cheater is taking advantage of the other players' ignorance. If players are slapping down big money and don't bother learning how to defend themselves in private games then there's the belief that they are simply "asking for it". 2) In the case of addictive gamblers: Is the advantage player any more dishonest in cheating to win, than the addictive gambler who decieves his family and friends by risking substantial sums of money on the laws of probability. Of course this situation wouldn't fit EVERY gambling addict, but I'll bet it matches more than a few scenarios. Thanks for reading and contributing, Zac
"Which way I fly is Hell; myself am Hell; And in the lowest deep a lower deep
Still threat'ning to devour me opens wide, To which the Hell I suffer seems a Heav'n" -John Milton, (Paradise Lost) |
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Tony45 Veteran user 384 Posts |
The ends always justify the means. don't matter if its cheating at cards, dice, whatever.
You want the ends bad enough, you will find a way to justify it, lol. |
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Vincero Veteran user New Zealand 379 Posts |
Ok good, and moral justification? doesn't have to be related to God either...
"Which way I fly is Hell; myself am Hell; And in the lowest deep a lower deep
Still threat'ning to devour me opens wide, To which the Hell I suffer seems a Heav'n" -John Milton, (Paradise Lost) |
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AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts |
Personally, I started cheating because everyone did. Whatever the stakes, the games, people, I've always played with guys trying to get some advantage (as hypocrites call cheating). And one day you realize that the main part of the money you lost wasn't necessary due to a bad play from you...
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luvisi Special user 601 Posts |
Here are some that I've either read in books or online, or heard from the few cheaters I've known in person.
Financial: "I need the money"/"I want the money"/"it's my job" In Scarne on Dice, John Scarne quotes a cheaters' saying, "A guy's gotta live." Fun: "I like to win"/"it's fun to beat people"/"it's fun to cheat" No bones about it: "Of course it's immoral." Indifferent: "Screw 'em" The real criminals are the rich and powerful: "Look at the politicians or all the wall street people who screwed millions of people out of their life savings." This one has a long history. Both How Gamblers Win and Erdnase specifically mention the stock market. Everyone's a cheater at heart: This one's particularly easy for Three Card Monte operators or other con artists who induce their victims to try and take advantage of them. Devol has an essay about this in Forty Years a Gambler on the Mississippi. I've seen online comments along the lines of "I've never had a mark tell me about the bent corner." Andru
Andru Luvisi
http://www.practicenotincluded.com/ |
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bblumen Special user Baltimore 987 Posts |
"A fool and his money were lucky to get together in the first place." Harry Anderson
"Lulling the minds of your company is more important than dazzling their eyes." Ed Marlo
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DSmagic Regular user London 132 Posts |
Sharps and Flats mentions that anyone who gambles basically has dishonesty in them anyway. So cheating is only natural.
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Marlin1894 Special user 559 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-07-20 10:40, luvisi wrote: Do unto to others before they do unto you. |
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MickeyPainless Inner circle California 6065 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-07-20 17:24, Marlin1894 wrote: I've read somewhere a more current version.... "Do unto your classmates, leave fake keys on the table then bale out the bathroom window"! |
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luvisi Special user 601 Posts |
I forgot: "He's gonna lose it anyway. It might as well be to me."
Andru Luvisi
http://www.practicenotincluded.com/ |
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luvisi Special user 601 Posts |
On the "everyone's a cheat" theme, I distinctly remember reading, though I can't find it now, someone arguing that everyone's a cheat with a hypothetical story. It went something like this:
Quote:
Imagine that you have a strong hand, and you intend to back it to the hilt. Now, imagine that you catch a glimpse of my hand, and see that I have you beat. Now, will you continue to back your hand to the hilt, as you would have had you not received the illegitimate advantage of knowing my hand, or would you fold? You'd fold, of course, as would everyone. Therefore, everyone's a cheat. I'm sorry to say that I have thus far been unsuccessful in locating the above story. If anyone else recognizes it, please post a reference. It's kind of bugging me that I can't find it. Andru
Andru Luvisi
http://www.practicenotincluded.com/ |
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Vincero Veteran user New Zealand 379 Posts |
This is really great. Thanks for all of your replies. Keep them coming, it's an interesting topic. Luvisi, thanks for providing references that I can cite if need be when I get round to writing this essay.
I thought also of jobs that claim to be honest, but in many ways aren't. Exaggeration in order to sell products, the stock market etc. Keep the thoughts coming, Thanks everyone, Zac
"Which way I fly is Hell; myself am Hell; And in the lowest deep a lower deep
Still threat'ning to devour me opens wide, To which the Hell I suffer seems a Heav'n" -John Milton, (Paradise Lost) |
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Kirjava Regular user 118 Posts |
Quote:
Imagine that you have a strong hand, and you intend to back it to the hilt. Now, imagine that you catch a glimpse of my hand, and see that I have you beat. Now, will you continue to back your hand to the hilt, as you would have had you not received the illegitimate advantage of knowing my hand, or would you fold? You'd fold, of course, as would everyone. Therefore, everyone's a cheat. I'm pretty sure I read the exact same story but I don't know where either... That's the way I think btw =) |
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Chris Piercy Special user Dorset, England 932 Posts |
I almost think that cheating should be allowed as getting to a standard of false dealing and stacking takes much longer and is much more skillful than becoming good at poker, but then the game becomes "who can cheat best" which changes the game entirely.
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NJJ Inner circle 6437 Posts |
1) The victim is greedy and/or stupid. The cheat is a force of justice, punishing the victim for their flaws. I.e. the misnomer that you can't con and honest man. The cheat paints the victim as a villain and he the hero.
2) The assumption that game is 'not fair' and therefore the cheat is only evening the playing field. E.g. A casino is designed so that the player, over time, will always lose. This is 'unfair' and so the cheat decides to cheat to win. 3) The victim is a criminal and does not play by the rules of society. Therefore, the cheat feels he does not need to play by the rules of society either. The criminal may not be cheating in the game. 4) Cheating is a form of advantage play. To be caught cheating is no different from being caught bluffing, angle shooting etc. Cheating is little more than a extension of the natural deception of play. 5) The cheat does not justify his actions but instead dismisses the question itself. For example, he might make of jokey answers seen above. 6) The cheat claims it is his nature. He cheats because he is a cheat. A scorpion asks a frog for a lift across a river. The frog says no, worried that the scorpion will sting him. The scorpion points out that if he stings the frog he will drown. The frog agrees and gives the scorpion a lift. Half way across the pond, the scorpion stings the frog. "Why did you do that?" the frog asked as they both died. The scorpion replied "It is my nature." |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
A most excellent post, Nicholas.
While a thousand cheaters might give a thousand different answers, most fall into one of those categories. Of course, around here one might get the impression that the main reason cheaters do it is to be cool. |
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AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts |
7) The cheat cheats because he can do it. It surely isn't the most important category but it exists. I've myself done moves at the tables whereas there was nothing to gain out of it. Nothing to do with "nature", you do it because you like to do it, because you enjoy sleights of hand, the feeling to control the deck under their very eyes. It's not very clever as any mistake would cost, sure. But playing cards is often boring, it spices up the evening... Yes Jeff, it can be cool.
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NJJ Inner circle 6437 Posts |
I think I myself would be in the same category as Mr McDonald.
I too find myself cheating when I play cards with friend. Even if no money is on the table, I just like to play with the deck. I suppose my muscle memory is more used to sleight of hand than it is to playing fair. |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
Here's an eighth:
8) If you are a member of a crew, you don't question the ethics of cheating (or anything else illegal you might be doing) at all. It's just your job. Period. That's the category which interests me the most, by the way. |
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bblumen Special user Baltimore 987 Posts |
The surest way to remain poor is to be an honest man.
-Napoleon Bonaparte There's one way to find out if a man is honest - ask him. If he says, "Yes," you know he is a crook. -Groucho Marx Me, I'm dishonest, and you can always trust a dishonest man to be dishonest. Honestly, it's the honest ones you have to watch out for. -Johnny Depp You've got to be honest; if you can fake that, you've got it made. -George Burns Suckers have no business with money anyway. -Canada Bill Jones
"Lulling the minds of your company is more important than dazzling their eyes." Ed Marlo
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