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balducci
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Quote:
On 2011-07-24 01:29, LobowolfXXX wrote:

Wow, Norway's toughest criminal sentence is 21 years?! Nothing like killing 92 people and getting out of prison in time for your 55th birthday party.

This link indicates that effective life imprisonment is possible in Norway, but rare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment_in_Norway

"The maximum indeterminate penalty, called "containment" (Norwegian: forvaring), is also set at 21 years imprisonment, and the prisoner is required to serve at least 10 years before becoming eligible for parole. "Containment" is used when the prisoner is deemed a danger to society and there is a great chance of committing violent crimes in the future. If the prisoner is still considered dangerous after serving the original sentence, the prisoner can receive up to five years additional containment. If the additional time is served, and the offender is still considered dangerous, a prisoner can continue to receive up to five years additional containment, and this, in theory, could result in actual life imprisonment."
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Pakar Ilusi
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May they all Rest In Peace.

Very sad this... Smile
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
stoneunhinged
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From this article:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0......tsmodule

[quote]Although the attacks in Oslo and Utoeya were precisely planned and executed, Breivik does not appear to have ever had military training. On his Facebook site, which has been shut down, Breivik says he enjoys playing computer games such as World of Warcraft and Modern Warfare 2. Other hobbies include hunting. [/quote

Not that it matters much. Human beings are simply predictably unpredictable. Who knows what it takes to push your neighbor over the edge?

I mourn for humanity, sometimes. I truly mourn. We are capable of such great compassion, such great love, such great ambition...and such great destruction. And we do it over and over and over again. We do not learn. Maybe we cannot learn. Maybe the destructiveness is the price of beauty. I do not know. I am not wise.

:(
critter
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The story grows more horrific as the facts unfold. No matter if it's their "9/11" or "Columbine" or whatever, the one thing we do know is that it is a great tragedy. It's awful for everyone who knew the victims and it's awful for the whole country, in fact it's pretty awful for the human race.
Now is the time to show support for the victims and their families.
I'm not ready to debate the "reasons."
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Pakar Ilusi
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For one man to cause so much destruction is just so incredible and so sad.

So much grief, so quickly.

Kids on the island were 14 to 19 years old...

Hug your kids a bit tighter tonight those lucky enough.

So very very sad... Smile

Life really is fleeting.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
Destiny
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I gave up on world peace many years ago. I understand why people go to war, both offensively and defensively. I understand why people attack and kill people they hate. (That understanding does not mean condoning or liking any of it - just understanding.) What I cannot get my head around is attacking people who are not your enemy to make a point.
stoneunhinged
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On 2011-07-24 12:23, Destiny wrote:
What I cannot get my head around is attacking people who are not your enemy to make a point.


Which is what makes such tragedy decidedly human. Wolves or elephants or sharks (or whatever) wouldn't do such a thing. Only human beings seem to "rationalize" such incredibly destructive behavior.

It would seem (so far; you know how these things go) that the guy had planned this well in advance. Even the bomb was coldly calculated to occupy authorities while he murdered as many teenagers as possible.
balducci
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Quote:
On 2011-07-24 12:23, Destiny wrote:

I gave up on world peace many years ago. I understand why people go to war, both offensively and defensively. I understand why people attack and kill people they hate. (That understanding does not mean condoning or liking any of it - just understanding.) What I cannot get my head around is attacking people who are not your enemy to make a point.

I believe this case may fall more into the former than the latter given that he mainly attacked and killed people he perceived to be his enemy (i.e., members of the ruling government and politically active children of its members).

Quote:
On 2011-07-24 12:52, stoneunhinged wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-07-24 12:23, Destiny wrote:
What I cannot get my head around is attacking people who are not your enemy to make a point.


Which is what makes such tragedy decidedly human. Wolves or elephants or sharks (or whatever) wouldn't do such a thing. Only human beings seem to "rationalize" such incredibly destructive behavior.

It may be that only humans 'rationalize' it. But animals do attack their own, in vicious and incredibly destructive ways. E.g., recent studies have exposed dolphins to be mean killers of their own kind, and of members of non-violent, non-rival, non-predatory other species.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Jonathan Townsend
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On 2011-07-22 13:02, Destiny wrote:
What do these people think they achieve?


The usual "force the hand of God" strategy. Start the pendulum swinging and then profit from the predictable actions.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2011-07-24 14:17, balducci wrote:...
It may be that only humans 'rationalize' it. But animals do attack their own, in vicious and incredibly destructive ways. E.g., recent studies have exposed dolphins to be mean killers of their own kind, and of members of non-violent, non-rival, non-predatory other species.


Peter Watts's story "Bulk Food" might offer some insight on this topic.

here you go, courtesy of the author: http://www.rifters.com/real/shorts/Watts......Food.pdf

Kindly do the "save as" to your local drive. Smile
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Weisszach
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Hate seeing this sort of stuff as there seems to be no logical reason for this. My heart goes out to everyone involved.
1tepa1
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You can also pray for the shooter. He was catholic.

I am hoping the best for the families.
Destiny
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I won't be sparing any sympathy for the shooter - I had none for Bin Laden or the Aum Shinrikyo mob that gassed Tokyo's subways or any like them. These people who pose as extreme religious purists are simply self centred and self righteous ****wits - religion has nothing to do it - it's cover for their own self importance. There are an awful lot of Catholics, Protestants, Moslems, Buddhists, Sikhs etc in this world who feel strongly about their beliefs but don't behave like this.

Such people make me wish eternal ***ation and suffering was real.
acesover
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Do you feel that this guy really deserves a trial?

Mind you I said a trial. I am not speaking of his mental state. Lets assume he is found fit to stand trial. Do you feel he deserves one? Does anyone believe he is innocent?

Again assuming he is found mentally fit to stand trial. Why should he just not be executed? Is that uncivilized? Should a person be excuted who just killed 90 plus people and is judged mentally compentent? If so why? Maybe because he is a killer who thinks nothing of killing children. But I am just guessing here. Some may believe he has rights. Of course I believe he forfeited those rights when he killed all those people and everyone knows he did it.

Should we be asking why should a person who just executed 90 plus people warrant a trial when he has been judged mentally fit to stand trial for something we know he did? Should he be fed and clothed for the duration of his waiting to stand trial? Should he have cable TV while waiting? Just asking here.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
landmark
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So you're not in favor of the American system of justice? I'm no legal historian, but I'd venture to say that at least the last four hundred years of Western jurisprudence is based on the concept of a trial. Just sayin'.
acesover
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On 2011-07-25 00:45, landmark wrote:
So you're not in favor of the American system of justice? I'm no legal historian, but I'd venture to say that at least the last four hundred years of Western jurisprudence is based on the concept of a trial. Just sayin'.


Please don't put words in my mouth. Read my post. The only thing I said is I believe "HE" forfeited those rights when he killed those people. A trial for a crime such as this whether here in the United States or Norway is a waste of money and quite honestly makes a mockery out of the justice system. What will a trial prove? As stated earlier (presumed) he is of sound mind. We know he did it. Please tell me the point of a trial ini this instance. This is only an opinion and definitely not a legal stand. I can definitely be changed of said opinion with a valid arguement. But stick to the facts of mentally competent and definitely did it.

By the way, the Amreican Justice System works just fine in "MOST" cases. Of course we just had one that many people disagreed with didn't we?
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
balducci
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Quote:
On 2011-07-25 00:56, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-07-25 00:45, landmark wrote:

So you're not in favor of the American system of justice? I'm no legal historian, but I'd venture to say that at least the last four hundred years of Western jurisprudence is based on the concept of a trial. Just sayin'.


Please don't put words in my mouth. Read my post. The only thing I said is I believe "HE" forfeited those rights when he killed those people.

Well, I'm also not sure what you are saying then.

IF it is the case you believe he forfeited his rights to a trial, then it certainly does sound to me as though you are not in favor of the American and Western systems of justice. Or at least that you oppose certain central features of them.

In this particular case, it appears that he published a confession and so it sounds as though the trial should (hopefully) be cut and dry.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Pakar Ilusi
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The trial is to keep our sanity, not his.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
Destiny
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Quote:
On 2011-07-25 01:10, balducci wrote:

In this particular case, it appears that he published a confession and so it sounds as though the trial should (hopefully) be cut and dry.


I think Balducci has it right - WE deserve a trial of even the most undeserving - the facts are presented and a verdict delivered - it's a system that has served us quite well for a long long time. In this case the evidence seems overwhelming.

As for his sanity, I don't know what Norwegian law states, but here, in the case of Martyn Bryant who carried out the Port Arthur massacre, although there were issues surrounding his mental health, the fact he was able to plan and carry out the attack, rendered that argument void.

I would hope that any decisions regarding such a person's fitness to stand trial were decided by a judge and jury - not a mental health expert - they often seem too close to their speciality to render an impartial verdict from my casual reading of news stories. (*I don't know that Norwegian law even works anything like ours - US, Canadian, Australian etc are all based on the English justice system, or 'British' as MARK LEWIS would insist Smile )

I hate to open this can of worms, but the "I'm crazy", "I was drug affected" and "I had a terrible childhood" excuses don't play well with me. Plenty of people with the same problems do not do terrible things.
LobowolfXXX
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As meaningful concepts of morality become rejected more and more, it seems insanity and evil gradually converge, and responsibility declines. If there is no evil, then what explanation is there for such acts, apart from insanity? Sane people don't go around killing people. Still a minority viewpoint, but from casual conversation, it really seems to me that some bizarre notion where the act becomes its own excuse is becoming more and more widely accepted.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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