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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Good News! » » Objectionable Review at Penguinmagic.com » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Mark
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I was looking around penguinmagic.com last week and came across the following review of "The Pro PK Kit (a.k.a. The New Micro 5)". This review is one click away from penguin magic's home page (see "Top 10 Magic Tricks", and is the second review of the product.

“I love it. I PERFORMED THIS THRICK AT A CHURCH BY MAKING THE HOLY BREAD START HOPING AROUND IN THE PRIEST'S HAND. AT FIRST PEOPLE WERE SCREAMING SAYING I WAS THE DEVIL BUT THEN THE PRIEST SAID I WAS AN ANGEL. IT WAS SOO COOL.”

Naturally, I found it quite objectionable. Last Thursday brought it to the attention of their customer service department, and was told it would be looked into and that the reviews would be monitored.

It is still there today. I was thinking that maybe if more people complained they'd be prompted to take action more quickly...

Mark
Mehtas
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Thanks for the pointer mark . Smile

I also did not like the following words

"Be careful when performing in front of VERY religious people or else they might accuse you of witchcraft"



T.
HoudinFan
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Quote:
On 2003-08-25 17:33, Topsy wrote:
Thanks for the pointer mark . Smile

I also did not like the following words

"Be careful when performing in front of VERY religious people or else they might accuse you of witchcraft"



T.





Fortunately in the USA "these words" are protected by their first amendment.

It was wise of their founding fathers to take the words of a Frenchman to heart.

"I may wholly disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Voltaire
DougTait
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Fortunately in the USA "these words" are protected by their first amendment.

It was wise of their founding fathers to take the words of a Frenchman to heart.

"I may wholly disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Voltaire


Fortunately the first amendment does NOT apply to privately owned and operated media such as Penguin Magic and this Café. The owner of the site has every right to censor what he/she finds objectionable and will, (and frequently does) according to the Café Rules.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men [and women] to do nothing."
HoudinFan
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Yes but as I understand it the Constitution protects Penguin Magic as well as this newsgroup. Mark may be offended by the statement appearing on the Penguin Magic site but Penguin Magic is perfectly in their rights to post such a message.
If Mark owned Penguin Magic then he would be perfectly in his rights to censor the review. I am assuming that Mark does not own the aforesaid mentioned business and therefore he has no right whatsoever to dictate to Penguin Magic what they can or cannot put on their website.
Mark may, and most likely is offended by this amusing review and he is in his rights to tell Penguin Magic about his displeasure about it.
However trying to get an email campaign going to force Penguin Magic to bow to his will I feel violates the intended purpose of the first amendment. If one can force through intimidation another to limit their speech then their speech ceases to be free.
BroDavid
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Penguin has a right to allow whatever they wish. And Mark has a right to object to it.

He also has a right to share his objection.

And others have a right to object also. Mark did not try to organize an email campaign to try to convinve them to edit it. But even if he had, it would would have been within his right to do so.

To say that you can not try to organize resistence, or support for a cause would be like saying that candidates for office can't organize petition drives. Telling someone he does not have eh right to object and organize the support of like minded individuals flies contrary to the principal of "Free speech" that you support.

On a personal basis, I am not that offended.
Except for the fact that post is in ALL CAPS, and that really offends me! You wont see that kind of thing around here! (maybe a little while, but the Grammar Hosts and Hostesses will clean it up quick!)

I hear really objectionable things from people all of the time, and I just consider the source. The person who made the questionable comment probably doesn't have a clue or belief of any kind. Rather they simply say something they believe to be clever, or that they heard from someone else, and never really tested in real life experiences. In either case their comments are rarely valid, and invariably unsupported generalizations that make them feel good to say.

However if others are offended, by all means make it known. That is your right. As it is Penguin's right to ignore or consider your objections at own option.

I have been offended sufficiently by some business organizations that I refuse to deal with them. And that is always our choice, to simply fail to spend money with them; If the offense is great enough.

BroDavid
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
HoudinFan
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Quote:
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Penguin has a right to allow whatever they wish. And Mark has a right to object to it.

He also has a right to share his objection.
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But one would hope that he would have the wherewithal to realize that there are those in this world who do not share his beliefs and yet their beliefs are as valid as his.

Quote:
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Penguin has a right to allow whatever they wish. And Mark has a right to object to it.

He also has a right to share his objection.
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But one would hope that he would have the wherewithal to realize that there are those in this world who do not share his beliefs and yet their beliefs are as valid as his.

Quote:
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And others have a right to object also. Mark did not try to organize an email campaign to try to convinve them to edit it. But even if he had, it would would have been within his right to do so.
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Really then I must have misinterpreted him when he said

“It is still there today. I was thinking that maybe if more people complained they'd be prompted to take action more quickly... “

Quote:
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To say that you can not try to organize resistence, or support for a cause would be like saying that candidates for office can't organize petition drives. Telling someone he does not have eh right to object and organize the support of like minded individuals flies contrary to the principal of "Free speech" that you support.

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Yes but the examples you give are actions taken by the people against their government not the people against their fellow man. The only time that speech should be restricted is when it is libelous. You may not like the message but you must allow the messenger to deliver it.
Mark is attempting to censor another’s freedom of speech for no other reason than it offends him personally. I for one hope that Penguin Magic sticks to their guns and leaves the message on their site as is.

Quote:
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However if others are offened, by all means make it known. That is your right. As it is Penguin's right to ignore or consider your objections at own option.

I have been offended sufficinetly by some business organizations that I refuse to deal with them. And that is always our choice, to simply fail to spend money with them; If the offense is great enough.
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This is quite correct and level headed. If your eye offends thee, pluck it out. I have no difficulty with Mark e-mailing his displeasure with the posting to Penguin Magic that is his right. I believe where he crossed the line is when he solicited the aid of others to join him in trying to force his will over Penguin Magic.
If he is so upset about their posting this message let him vote with his feet and let him take his business elsewhere.

They funny thing about all of this is that in trying to have this post deleted he has brought it to the attention of many who would have never seen it in the first place. I find the fact that he published the entire text of the post that offended him curious as well. One might even assume that Mark himself was the author of the original post and merely using this forum to draw attention to it. But then no one would ever think of doing that would they?
BroDavid
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I don't think that Mark ever indicated that he thought his view was the only possible viewpoint.

However I do not agree with you that all views carry the same weight of truth, even though the individual espousing the view believes it completely.

If you look at tree and say that is an elm tree. That is your right to think so. However if the tree is actually a maple tree, then your view may still be valid in your mind and others may even agree with you, but that view or the agreement of otehrs does not change the nature of the tree, so the beleif isn't necessarily true and accurate.

I believe that one and one are two. And the rules of mathmatics back me up. So it is more than opinion or viewpoint. It is a statement that is supported by the authority of the unchanging rules of mathmatics.

You can belive that one and one are three, if you wish. But it does not make it true, nor is it as valid a beleif as mine, since it can not be based in fact or proven rule.

So although anyone has a right to a viewpoint, it is simply wrong to say that there are no absolute truths, and that personal opinion is the only measurement. Having an opinion doesn't make it right it right or wrong. It just makes it an opinion. But having an opinion honestly and fully based on facts; biological, mathmatical, or even spiritual means that has the weight of authority, and is therefore true.

And by the way, maybe I am wrong, but it seems that you are trying to censor or otherwise admonish Mark for exercising his Free Speech rights.

But all in all, why not let them alone. Let Mark say what he thinks, and let Penguin do what they choose to do.
For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not understand, no argument will convince them.

So, let's just close this discuusion.

BroDavid
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
Mark
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Hi all,

Wow, I've certainly churned up some powerful emotions here... I'm a big believer in free speech, and I'm certainly not trying to influence any of you or make anyone believe anything they don’t want to believe. I just saw something which, in my opinion, struck me to be offensive, and wanted to bring it to the attention of anyone else out there who might currently be of the same opinion. I thought there might be at least a few like-minded people out there in this Christian magic forum who'd be interested in registering their opinions at penguin. Penguin can decide to do whatever they wish; I just thought they should be aware of their customer's views.

If anyone likes the review and wants to let Penguin know, feel free!

Mark
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