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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Thanks Whit that was very interesting. I think good magicians, like good chefs, are very concerned about their reputations. That seems to me to be one thing that drives them to do their best.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Well, Tommy, I don't feel that way. It is the work itself that drives me. I want to create something that I have in my mind, solve all the problems, gather the skills and props and set and build a show that creates the look and feel and magic that I think is artistic and meaningful.
I don't feel I need to be concerned about my reputation, or about what anyone else is doing, or whether or not I will be successful. I have a thing I want to make. That is what drives me. I don't know about anyone else and what drives them. To me it isn't about being famous or being the best. It is about creating something that gives expression to my love of magic and my understanding of what makes it important and worthwhile, and of live entertainment itself, all the while making as few artistic compromises as possible. |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
It is most intriguing (to me) that Whit, who says he does not care what the spectator thinks, is concerned with the Affect of his performance; while Brad, who above says he does care about what the spectator thinks, hopes they remain unchanged after the performance (no Affect).
I would imagine that many of the member's views here would fall in between these extremes -- with a few, like myself, holding views outside of this dialectic. (subject of another thread perhaps) back on topic -- what are the imagined views of the two guys who chose not to attend? Were they avoiding the Effect or Affect? The first guy seems to be attracted by neither -- only the mystique of popularity. If performance magic is an art, then is not the possiblity of a transfer of passion critical? How many avoid a performance because they fear this potential? How many members here avoid posting because of the same reason?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-08-04 08:16, funsway wrote: No. It's a odd view of art that requires a "possibility of transfer of passion". Between the artist and spectator? Does this only apply to performance art, or does it apply to music and the visual arts? How about architecture? How about pornography? Maybe pornography is a particularly expressive art, in a sense, and shouldn't have the bad reputation it has. Now, when I am performing, I sure want a transfer of energy between myself and the audience, but I wouldn't call it a transfer of passion. That seems vulgar to me. |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
"It is about creating something that gives expression to my love of magic and my understanding of what makes it important and worthwhile" says Whit. That is vulger??
"Passion is universal humanity. Without it religion, history, romance and art would be useless." ~ HonorÈ de Balzac "Passion is energy. Feel the power that comes from focusing on what excites you." Oprah Winfrey "Without passion you don't have energy, without energy you have nothing." Donald Trump
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
Funsway: Good point above. Let me explain my position. I am always interested and expecting and 'Affect' upon the audience. Folks will experience the 'Effect' in some fashion and the Affect will be surprise, great surprise, fear maybe in one fashion or another, like what you might get in a scary movie, etc. Folks can be affected.
What I fear is having them 'changed' in some substantive manner. I want them to walk away having had a great time, hopefully, but I'm neither wise enough, skilled or imbued with enough hubris to think that I could guarantee a 'positive' change in an audience member of whatever kind. The assumption is virtually always, unless the performer is psychopathic, that a 'change' must be positive. I don't believe that's supportable. Even if there's an 'apparent' positive 'change' because of some manipulation, the long term affect is open to question. The affect coming from any performance that I talk about is the short term 'affect' that any performance of any 'kind' can offer. A good mood from having had a great time, etc. That's all. I believe that almost all performers have a basic goal: Entertain the audience and be done. Subsidiary goals like getting famous and making a ton of moola generally are the affect of performing the primary well. But, that's it for me. My primary goal with no occult goals added is to simply do a good job entertaining. If I have any concept of longer term affect it would be that folks remember my performance and perhaps myself fondly and recommend me to their friends. But, if someone for instance, ever came up to me and said that their life was changed in some primary manner because they watched me perform I would hope it was positive, but it would make me uncomfortable, because that's not my job. I can't for instance 'make' a person happy. No person can do that for some other person. I can offer something that will allow the happiness within someone to be expressed, etc. It's terribly pathological when someone believes that they are responsible for someone anyone's happiness. If a performer has this belief it's that much more problematic. Hmmmmmmm....not completely satisfied with the above, but you get the idea...I hope. Best regards,
Brad Burt
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
The fact that you are not completely satisfied is good affect, methinks. It is often folly to set out to change another person positively or negatively, but wise to recognize that any intereactive communication with another could have an impact, both you and the other person. How else do we learn except to have ourselves reflected in another?
Many believe in the "ripple in the pond" mythos, while other try and drop in boulders without getting their feet wet. In performance magic perhaps the greates affect is in the story told after -- another person inspired by the telling rather than the direct observation itself. I hope ...
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-08-04 10:53, funsway wrote: And just where does Whit say that this is an "exchange of passion" between him and his audience? |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
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On 2011-08-04 08:16, funsway wrote: Some one once said, I can’t at the moment remember exactly who, that a performer gives his audience what they want to see. An Artist however gives his audience what they didn’t know they wanted to see. A performer creates an act that they hope will appeal to an audience. They may even limit their artistic nature and sacrifice personal preferences by performing tricks they abhor but know the audience will love to achieve this task. They put the audience’s likes above their own becoming subservient to them and thus will never achieve Art with a capital A. The Artist on the other hand creates as a form of self expression. He hopes that the audience will appreciate and understand his work. But he doesn’t create it “for” them. He doesn’t do things to make it more palatable or popular. To do so places limitations on his creativity. These two positions are extremes and most of us fall in various positions between them. Hopefully most of us find that happy medium where we can both express our artistic side while being equally entertaining to our audiences. For something to be “Art” (with a capital A) it must evoke an emotional response. Most people mistakenly believe it must be a positive emotional response. Which of course is not at all true. Art that repels and repulses is just as valid as Art that elevates and enlightens. It’s just that a repellant magic show generally isn’t the proper one to do at little Timmy’s birthday party.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
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On 2011-08-03 11:07, Donnie wrote: That made me smile. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
If magic is an effect that has no rational explanation then how can magic be the cause when its an effect?
Riddle me that one Bat Man!
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-08-04 12:28, tommy wrote: And that, in a nutshell is the rub. Chestnuts of Olympus! |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Well I riddle it thus: Magic is not the cause alone nor is magic the effect alone. Magic is an effect with no rational explanation. Together those two things is what Magic is.
So when Whit said “….when watching the Teleportation Device, the audience will assume that it is magic and not science. But by magic, they mean the "technology that stage magician's use" he must be wrong. That is an abstraction from what magic is, it seems to me: Magic is what is actually presented to the audience and that consists of the two things; being shown an effect and being shown it has no rational cause. That is what they instantly recognise as magic. After they have been shown that magic the question of what caused the magic will naturally arise. That question that arises is not the same as what is magic. The answer to that question will be the "technology that stage magician's use". Or somthing like that.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Tommy, you are using the word effect in two different ways--conflating the meanings.
There is nothing necessarily magic about a particular bill being in a lemon. It is whether there was time, opportunity and a method to get it into the lemon while the audience is watching everything closely that makes it magic. My lie is that the device causes this to happen. Everyone knows that that is not sufficient cause, but some pleasant conceit. But they can't find any possible other sufficient cause. So they are left with a dilemma. The only explanation they are given is insufficient and they know it. But the dilemma can be classified as "some kind of magic trick" and put away. The solution is "unknown technology." The "effect" as the result of the magic isn't magic. The conclusion or result of the magic is just, for example, that the handkerchief is red. That isn't magic. It is that the handkerchief was white and became red after simply passing through the hand. This is where you use the word "effect" like a magician does, not meaning the result, but the process that the audience watches--what happens in the trick? The result of the magic isn't magic. It is just a red handkerchief. How it came to be red without being dyed with chemicals is the magic. The impossible is any result for which there is no sufficient natural cause. Is a rabbit magic? Is a whole lady magic? Is a bowl of goldfish magic? Is a Six of Hearts magic? Of course not. These are the results or "effects" of a magical process. The things that the audience saw happen do not contain within themselves sufficient cause for the result, and no sufficient cause can be sussed out. These are the final conditions, not magical in themselves, but their being in this condition is marvelous because there is no sufficient cause that can account for the current state of things. |
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Johnny Butterfield Veteran user 378 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-08-04 19:33, Whit Haydn wrote: I think this says it about as well as it can be said. My hazy pondering is brought to razor-sharp focus in 25 words.
The current economic crisis is due to all the coins I've vanished.
The poster formerly known as Fman111. |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
"their being in this condition is marvelous"
this softer and gentler view of the Dilemma has an appeal for me -- the exploration of same perhaps worthy of a new thread. If "inducement" is favored over "persuasion," and "creation of condition" the focus, and The Dilemma a culmination and signal that "you did it right" ... many things to ponder here
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
How did you understand the dilemma to be harder? I am not sure I follow you, Ken.
I don't think I have said anything new. |
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Alan Wheeler Inner circle Posting since 2002 with 2038 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-08-03 22:10, Whit Haydn wrote: This seems like the right path. Some things like happiness and art happen while one is busy doing other things and can disappear if pursued as goals in themselves. The magic effect might be broken up into at least two parts: (1) the change from the initial condition to the final condition + (2) the missing cause. While the transformed position or state relates more to the plot of the routine, the missing cause relates more to the deceptiveness and methodology--the impact. Conflation comes from using the word "effect" to mean 1. trick or routine, 2. the magic effect described in Whit's posts, and 3. result or conclusion.
The views and comments expressed on this post may be mere speculation and are not necessarily the opinions, values, or beliefs of Alan Wheeler.
A BLENDED PATH Christian Reflections on Tarot Word Crimes Technology and Faith........Bad Religion |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
To me, you have ...
and it may be difficult to explain -- especially on such a forum. It is my perceptions, or perhaps "point of perspective" that is altered; though I would imagine others have felt a disquietute -- remaining silent watchers as the "groking" unfolds -- not "harder" vs. "easier," just "gentler on the mind" rather than before. This thread is already out in the swamp. I'll try and pen some cogent thoughts and wait for a better time and place. Waiting can also be a harbinger of magic ;-) Please recall that my experience with forging a Dilemma using a magic effect has not been to have them say "ah, magic" but "oh my, what I thought impossible may not be so." I know you do not consider that to be "Our Magic" -- but it may be "Their Magic," as in what the other two boys are looking for. I seek a clarity of the Dilemma that applies to all magic performance. Keep plugging away.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
I think that if they say, oh my, "what I thought impossible many not be so..." in my opinion means there is no dilemma. They have been convinced that the impossible really happened. Therefore, it is not Our Magic at all, but charlatanry, which is a different artform than ours, in my opinion. It has different goals and must apply somewhat different methods. Charlatans can often convince susceptible others of their powers without even doing any demonstrations.
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