|
|
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3~4~5~6~7 [Next] | ||||||||||
Alan Wheeler Inner circle Posting since 2002 with 2038 Posts |
No argument as to the social frame; I think it's a given, except for psychic entertainment and some of the more ambiguous mentalism.
The fourth wall is not equal to the theatrical frame. I do not think the fourth wall is required for theater, especially if you count modern drama, chess and sports matches, some game shows, and interactive plays. And magic.
The views and comments expressed on this post may be mere speculation and are not necessarily the opinions, values, or beliefs of Alan Wheeler.
A BLENDED PATH Christian Reflections on Tarot Word Crimes Technology and Faith........Bad Religion |
|||||||||
Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
"You want to see something scary?" --Twilight Zone movie
What we give them may be more than they bargained for...are we responsible for that? When someone says yes to a question like that, don't they have a certain amount of trust that what they will be shown will just "look" scary, and not actually be terrifying and dangerous? There is some relationship of trust given and taken, in my opinion, in even this most basic theatrical form. "Want to see me make your mom disappear?" |
|||||||||
Alan Wheeler Inner circle Posting since 2002 with 2038 Posts |
really scary
I just found this quote from July, 2005, embedded as a topic in a topic: "Magic although theatrical looking at times, as well as often performed in a theater is not theater per se. Theater and magic have had separate histories, separate beginnings, separate purposes, and often quite differing effects on those who watch. Although they have been married up for many years as are married couples, still individuals. Frank Tougas" Is part of the dilemma the fact that, in modern performance magic, real magic/charlatanry [take your pick] has been wedded to drama? Is magic a hybrid of the clearly fake haunted house and the paranormal seance? Do we give a virtual display of paranormal physics with evidence but present it as a show? Is there a theatrical social frame that includes the audience in such a way that there is often no fourth wall? Comparing the end of Hamlet to Richiardi's "Sawing" may give a clue to the answer. While we might not call the police and the ambulance, we may face a dilemma.
The views and comments expressed on this post may be mere speculation and are not necessarily the opinions, values, or beliefs of Alan Wheeler.
A BLENDED PATH Christian Reflections on Tarot Word Crimes Technology and Faith........Bad Religion |
|||||||||
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Alan, I'm not equating the theatrical convention of a fourth wall to the frame in which society permits us to perform our tricks.
Good call on the Richardi sawing. If they had any reason to believe they saw a murder, 911 would have been called - so we have a pretty good argument for there being no "outside the theater/show/time" frame dilemma even while folks go onstage to walk by the gruesome display.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
Alan Wheeler Inner circle Posting since 2002 with 2038 Posts |
I'm not sure whether I agree with Frank Tougas: I like Master Payne's lecture in which he shows performance magicians on a completely different evolutionary branch from the prophets, priests, and so on.
It does seem, though, that the conventions for magic are different from other forms that use the same social frame; there seems to be an element of deception, tangible (though false) proof, charlatanry, virtualosity, or phenomonological experience.
The views and comments expressed on this post may be mere speculation and are not necessarily the opinions, values, or beliefs of Alan Wheeler.
A BLENDED PATH Christian Reflections on Tarot Word Crimes Technology and Faith........Bad Religion |
|||||||||
Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
I have not heard Master Payne's lecture, but I tend to agree with the thesis you outlined.
There were cups and balls performers working the crowds at ancient Greek theaters. I have never understood the priest/shaman connection. I think the street performers who are our real ancestors did not learn their trades from priests and shamans. They mocked and made fun of the priests who used trickery to fool people. We are not the children of swindlers, charlatans and religious frauds, but the descendents of those that mocked them--that is, if we are doing what we are doing in order to surprise, delight and entertain, and not to enslave. |
|||||||||
tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Speak for yourself.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
|||||||||
BarryFernelius Inner circle Still learning, even though I've made 2537 Posts |
Priest/shaman connection? Maybe a few of the PEA guys and and some of the so-called Mystery Entertainers, but that's not who I am.
As for me, I'm the great-grandson of ancient street performers and "purveyors of japes, cheap tricks & minor amazements," as Master Payne might put it.
"To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time."
-Leonard Bernstein |
|||||||||
funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
In support of Whit's view on "no connect," the Turkic culture can be traced back to the earliest Mongolian Shaman. In the Middle ages when performance magic became popular the Sultans (Ottoman Empire) decreed that each type of magic must be kept separate under sever penalties. Street performers (Safik)could never do healing, spiritual or ritual magic, and the "priests" could not use conjury or mechanical tricks in thier work. The Shamanic traditions were passed down though rigorous and secret training, while the performance type was learned at Caravansari along the Silk Road.
This info came verbally from Turkish intructors at DLIWC in 1967 Their opinion was that this was not enforceable excep tin the major cities, but there are many stories of priests being prosecuted for "doing tricks" but none for Safik doing healing, or ritual magic.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
|||||||||
Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
That is wonderful info, Ken! Thank you very much for that citation.
|
|||||||||
Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Any idea where we might look for a written citation? Sure would be great to have. Had those teachers published anything in English?
|
|||||||||
jazzy snazzy Inner circle run off by a mob of Villagers wielding 2109 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-08-19 14:14, Whit Haydn wrote: So Whit, are you suggesting that these performers would most likely be satirists or political commentators? Interesting stuff.
"The secret of life is to look good from a distance."
-Charles Schulz |
|||||||||
Alan Wheeler Inner circle Posting since 2002 with 2038 Posts |
Here's Payne's lecture for easy reference: 2009 M & M Lecture
The views and comments expressed on this post may be mere speculation and are not necessarily the opinions, values, or beliefs of Alan Wheeler.
A BLENDED PATH Christian Reflections on Tarot Word Crimes Technology and Faith........Bad Religion |
|||||||||
funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-08-19 16:21, Whit Haydn wrote: They were language instructors but all from Turkey with its vast history. They had no particular experience with magic of either type, but very responsive to my questions. SOme communicated with collegeas and relative in Turkey and receive stories, but little hard evidence. I have attempted to follow some leads their occasionally but often run into a "fear" based wall by exporing things that "shouldn't be talked about." Even my instructors sort of looked over their shoulders whne talking about magic of either type. Ten thousand years of verbal story telling has led to some insights and suspicions and biases. I wrote to Tora to see if he could cast some light on the "legends" but never received a reply. All I can say is that these statements "feel right" as being consistent with other things I learned about this culture. It is part of the reason why I am drawn to looking at magic other than "it's just for entertainment."
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
|||||||||
Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-08-19 18:45, jazzy snazzy wrote: More like common people making fun of the "high and mighty." For example, medieval performers would mock the Latin Mass with magic words like "Hocus Pocus Dominocus!" But their work was largely to make people laugh, to create a good time, and get the money. |
|||||||||
Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
Be sure to watch the Cups and Balls routine also...
Brad Burt
|
|||||||||
Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Hey! There's pickpockets in the crowd!
|
|||||||||
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
How can you sell them if you don't get them into a dilemma?
I agree that we've long ago split our craft from the temple priest/god king's wizard toward what became the jongler outside and the standup comic indoors.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
We want to get 'em into a modern dilemma, Jon! And here it is right now, 450 horsepower in an all chrome package with dual reversible intake and outtake manifolds...why this is dilemma that will make you look sharp, and feel sharp! It'll put you on the cutting edge! No threads, reels, wires, or magnets! This is just what you were looking for, son!
|
|||||||||
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
We're selling entertainment - some time in the presence of a character who appears to be "outre". Unlike the dramatist who sells a dramatic arc or a meditation on the human condition we are selling a direct experience where our perceptions diverge from our beliefs about the world. More a dichotomy than a dilemma IMHO unless someone really wants to start puzzling things out and then, again IMHO, there's not much we can do if they act like the guys who discovered the Keplinger holdout. So that dilemma exists more as a guide away from the 'outside world restrictions', the walls of our frame. It looks like magic, there's no such thing as magic, third base - right, it's a show - back to enjoying the performance (character interaction with audience).
Getting back to the rhetorical distinctions between our product and Others - they pay to go to the show, that's it for cost. We pretty much don't do a pitch for snake oil or teleport boxes (keep your hard earned cash safe, inside the fruitbowl?) so any incidentals are more anchors , ex magic kit to share the fun, a poster. Next - what we ask folks to accept as possible or plausible is true only within the context of the performance. Nobody expects or even considers the magician at home to have his wife in a zigzag box or find here floating under the covers when he finally turns in after a long evening working an a script or prop in the basement. IMHO that limitation of scope or frame of relevance distinguishes our product/salesmanship from others who proffer some form of contact with "that which is not a part of our mundane experience - but exists in stories". Can we close the loop on that and get into branding? What values or images or associations does the performance reinforce? Sales and Rhetoric appear key to understanding our how our craft affects people. IMHO the dilemma we offer is related to the "urgent need/consequences/desire/projected future state" argument formats used when selling by establishing convictions then offering a (specious) path toward realizing those projected future states - though in our case we demonstrate rather than sell means to be used outside the show.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Food for thought » » Story and Dilemma (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3~4~5~6~7 [Next] |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.09 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |