|
|
Go to page 1~2 [Next] | ||||||||||
bartolomeo New user 25 Posts |
Hello everyone!
My very first post. I am quite excited... I've been in love with magic for many years and I'm ready to give my little contribution. I'll start by saying that magic is -as we all know- a form of art and as such should be treated by its lovers. I'll give you some comparisons: after playing an instrument for a year, would you play in front of an audience? Some genius probably could, but most would just have not acquired the necessary skills as to be amusing. Would you try and sell your paintings after a year or so of playing with canvas and brushes? Would you try and sell your first novel after second grade? I could keep providing examples, but you get the point, right? After learning the first tricks I couldn't wait to show it to everyone I knew. I fooled most of them, and some friends or relatives seemed pretty intrigued and kept asking me how it was done. My ego was satisfied for about 30 seconds... I remember thinking, "wow... it worked! This is great!" So I'd look for new effects, purchase new tricks and books and props... My goal was to fool people, and most of the time I could fool them and I felt confident that was what I was aiming at. I was so wrong! I never realized people very very seldom asked me, "Do that again! Please!". They were usually either slightly entertained or worse annoyed or challenged or bored! Some would ask, "How did you do that?!"; NOT, "Do that again!" or even better, "Do another one!". I finally realized I wasn't doing magic; I was imposing my lack of talent and knowledge to these poor people. It's not that people don't like magic, but magic performed in an amateurish way is boring just like amateurish writing, guitar playing or any other form of art. THIS IS IMPORTANT: the goal of magic is NOT to fool people! The goal is to provide a moment of MAGIC! The aim is to provide an experience of marvel, wonder, laughter and ultimately happiness. If you don't believe magic can do this to people, then you're focusing on the wrong object. Of course, even in any random beginner book all authors remark the importance of presentation. I believe this is not enough. It's not just patter and presentation that can transform a trick into MAGIC, it's something called TALENT. You can play a song well, rhythm and melody and everything. Still, people wouldn't pay to watch you play that song. You can write fairly well, still people wouldn't purchase your novel. These reasons led me to stop performing -or should I say "imposing my amateurish repertoire"- for people. I've been only studying and developing skills for years now, without ever performing one single trick. I now master some techniques, but I keep them to myself. This makes me a lot less of an amateur then before. Of course there are dangers even in reaching a stage like the one I'm in right now, which is the "never feel ready syndrome" that many magicians experience. I don't see it as a syndrome though. I think many people should cultivate magic as a hobby and never perform it for anyone. Many will say, "come on, magic is an art meant to entertain. If a trick is learned and never performed, it's just a waste of time!". To those I reply, "Do all piano players perform on stage or in front of other people? Do all people who love to write publish their novels? Do all painters end up in a gallery? No they don't!". Magic is the only art where people with no talent or skills think there's some entertaining value in the stuff they do and end up imposing it to the poor people in their surroundings. If you really love this art, as you should, realize it takes knowledge, skills and talent to share what you've been practicing. The mere fact you want to try and see if you can fool someone is not enough. Bad performances are extremely harmful to the art of magic and there should be more awareness of this. Of course this is something rarely stated so clearly because it goes against the commercial and economical aspect of the art. Professionals and talented performers sell their work primarily to amateurs and untalented people that dream of some day achieving the mastery of their idles. Good books will tell you to rehearse, practice, make sure you perform when you are ready; that's very good advise. They should also say, "maybe you simply suck, and should never perform". All this should NOT drive some people to abandon their passion for magic, it should just make them aware that if they really love magic but have no talent, they should not destroy the art's reputation with poor performances. Keep your strumming and thumbing for yourself, that's your biggest contribution to the art! Bartolomeo Bosco |
|||||||||
Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
If you never show and test your performance on real people, how do you improve?
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
|
|||||||||
samuwel New user 60 Posts |
I have a lot of time for this way of thinking. It's a very logical way of thinking about it and a good analogy with the instruments.
There is, however, a flaw in the analogy in that magic requires feedback and interaction with an audience. If you allow me to draw up my own analogy, I'd compare the learning process of magic more to that of a sport, such as tennis. You can hit a ball against a wall or return balls to one of those serving machines as much as you want, but unless you get some real time on-court with a real person, you will never be the best player that you could be. If you are content being fairly good technically, but not excellent in a match type (performing) environment then your way of thinking is a good one. However, if you do have any aspirations of ever truly entertaining people then it's vital to get the performing experience under your belt. |
|||||||||
Johnny Butterfield Veteran user 378 Posts |
I was a musician for long time, and there's a type of gig that magic is missing...
In Toronto, there is no shortage of hipster dive bars with live music. When I was a musician, once your band can hack out a 30 to 45 minute set, typically you can get booked opening at Lee's Palace on a Tuesday night, or Clinton's or the 360, etc. Hardly anyone is there, but you do get to play on stage, and it's relatively harmless. Not sure what the equivalent is in magic - I'm guessing performing for friends and family. Maybe performing at a retirement home, or some such.
The current economic crisis is due to all the coins I've vanished.
The poster formerly known as Fman111. |
|||||||||
Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
Yep, at some point if you are going to perform you actually have to get off the fence and perform. Basically you have to take every opportunity to perform that you can find. Work free in venues that have no money and would hire a magician anyway. But, you gotta get out there.
You can do a LOT in rehearsal when done correctly, but it's not the same.......... Best,
Brad Burt
|
|||||||||
magicfish Inner circle 7006 Posts |
Mike Close has published essays on this topic in his Workers series of books. Highly recommended reading.
|
|||||||||
bartolomeo New user 25 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-08-21 17:51, Pakar Ilusi wrote: I understand you have a point, you definitely need some feedback which can definitely come from your wife or husband, girlfriend or boyfriend, mom or dad, friends... just like someone on his way to becoming a writer. The same problems occur though. People close to you will be 99% of the time either over-critical or too forgiving. If you really think you have talent, just like a writer, you should get an external opinion from an audience, an audition and so on. In magic many people perform before having asked themselves, am I ready for this? Can I really do this trick in a professional way? So many times in the past I was so impatient to try a new trick on people that I did it before being ready hence getting a much worse reaction. I then would discount the effect instead of my own skills and presentation. Magic should be treated with the same respect as any other art. Deep inside we know if we're really good at performing an effect or not. Just like deep inside you know if you are ready to play a song in front of an audience. You wouldn't go out and play a song and make a fool of yourself if you weren't good, would you? That's because people listen to music all the time. They've heard the song you'll play before, and if you sucked they'd call you out after 5 seconds. With magic, we, magicians, perform in front of people that have no clue about the method and we tend to believe that's 90% of a trick. We perform in front of people that don't see that trick performed every day -as opposed to music which is part of everyone's daily experience- so we underestimate the importance of the performance. If magic was part of every person's daily experience we wouldn't dare to go and perform without getting good first. I say "WE", but of course here there are plenty of amazing performers. When I say WE I'm referring to the poor performer (myself included). That said, I believe when one feels ready it's KEY to go out and rock the world! If you feel confident, go and be awesome! I hope my message is not interpreted as an attempt to dissuade people from performing. That's not what I meant. ;-) |
|||||||||
tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Some are too timid to risk a dollar.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
|||||||||
bartolomeo New user 25 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-08-21 19:41, samuwel wrote: Thank you very much for your contribution! It's nice to see someone read my post! Magic requires interaction with an audience, that's right and that's a very good goal that every magician should have. The analogy with tennis can definitely be utilized, but playing someone at your same level can not be compared to performing for a crowd, it's more like showing your new trick you've been working on to your magician friend. It's definitely something that should be done as often as possible, but it's not comparable. You would play tennis with someone at your same level, but I wouldn't invite my family and friends to watch that amateur game if I sucked. Of course I love watching minor tennis tournaments, and I certainly can appreciate players well below the top players, but if I don't see any talent or skill I soon become bored. Parents and people who love us can definitely help us understand what we are doing well and give us feedback, just like parents that go watch their kids' tennis games. I'm not sure they would stop and watch a game if their kids were not involved. They are emotionally involved. My mother was a great source of feedback, but she didn't really enjoy my magic like an audience member, she always did it willingly, but she was basically doing me a favor, let's be honest. Now I talk for myself, and I am not trying to imply that any of you is at my level. I am not new to magic though, and I certainly know that my words can be applied to a lot of magicians. Hope I was able to share my thoughts clearly, English is not my mother tongue as you might have guessed. Bartolomeo |
|||||||||
bartolomeo New user 25 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-08-21 22:56, tommy wrote: thanks for your contribution! Well, you are very right. I tend to become very shy in front of an audience, but that's the whole point. If one is shy he's probably going to be a bad performer. There are also performers that are not shy and still suck though, ah ah... Performing can be very beneficial for shy people, so if one is planning on performing magic as a cure for shyness, well then... rehearsing, practicing and getting ready is even more vital. I can perform much better if I feel confident about my trick than if I don't really know what I'll use for misdirection or say at that particular moment. One can be shy and still have talent. I recommend magic to all shy people, but they gotta get good, otherwise there's no gain in self confidence and self esteem. |
|||||||||
bartolomeo New user 25 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-08-21 22:35, magicfish wrote: wow... thank you. Didn't know his work, will definitely check it out. Any particular book you'd recommend? Thanks Bartolomeo |
|||||||||
bartolomeo New user 25 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-08-21 20:44, Brad Burt wrote: WOW, an answer from BRAD BURT! Thanks a lot Brad. I've been reading your post and I respect your experience and knowledge. I think yours is very good advise. If one is ready to give it a try and feels ready, just do it. As for myself, I'm honest, I still don't feel confident enough. I understand one can't keep rehearsing forever. Until now, I only performed for free a couple of times in hospitals but never got the reactions I dream of. I did sponge balls, coins and rope magic (classics). Last year I also tried to perform at the busker festival in Ferrara, Italy. Pretty big event. It was just a bad choice. There were plenty of experienced performers and I wasn't even able to start a show. Didn't know how to attract, stop and keep a crowd. I was happy to have tried though. After going over Gazzo's and Cellini's works I feel more confident. I'll give it another try at a venue with less or no competition. I think experience is very precious and one can't get good without practicing. Bartolomeo Bosco |
|||||||||
bartolomeo New user 25 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-08-21 19:41, samuwel wrote: Sorry, I think I understood what you mean just now... You are saying that besides technical skills a magician needs to LEARN how to work with an audience. I agree 100%, not from real experience, but it's pretty logical. One can't get good at entertaining without practicing and working with an audience is no exception. It's true. But don't you think bad performing is not good for magic? I've seen even professional magicians with good technique but no entertaining talent. Maybe it's just me. I won't insist any further. Bartolomeo |
|||||||||
Al Schneider V.I.P. A corn field in WI surrounded by 1080 Posts |
Bartolomeo
Could you repeat that? Al Schneider
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
|
|||||||||
Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
There should always be places for performers to be bad. Try to balance that out with as much good magic as we can possibly produce.
|
|||||||||
bartolomeo New user 25 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-08-21 23:39, Al Schneider wrote: I'm sorry eminence, I don't understand if your post is sarcastic or not. Could you help me understand? PS: I love your work, your zombie routine is my favorite ever. I like how you make classics like Chinese linking rings, coins and rope magic modern and amazing. After purchasing every new trick for years I've come to realize that true mastery of classics should come before anything else. It took me a long time though. |
|||||||||
Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
Yes, that's it exactly. I have seen guys start from nothing to become first class entertainers as the years went forward. They were mostly terrible when they began. The problem with getting no audience time, what I like to think of frankly, as "testing" time is that you may not be able to identify problems in a routine from just doing it for a room full of empty chairs.
The magician communicates. The audience answers back. The magician communicates again. The audience reacts/answers again and so forth until the BAM at the end of the sequence. At some point in time you just have to find out if you can steal the baby bunnies without anyone catching you. If they do, you have to figure out why, make an adjustment and do it again. The lessons learned will with time be inculcated systemically and allow one to add material without having to do certain portions of the testing process, because you already know what's going to happen to a degree. Gotta show stuff. Gotta get busted. Gotta problem solve. Gotta integrate the new information. Gotta show the adjusted stuff. Gotta get busted or gotta succeed. Magic is a huge information processing thing. What works? Why does it work? Did it work the way you expected? Why did it work the way you expected? Can this new information be used over here to make this routine stronger? Why? And, on and on and on. Question everything about what you do. It will drive you crazy and just as you can't stand the process anymore you will have made it. You won't care, because the process will become automatic and thus not onerous. As an example everyone here who does sleight-of-hand has dealt with 'angles'. You can't hate or love them. They are just a reality of doing magic. Some guys literally deal with them by only doing material that has no bad angles. Cool. I dealt with them by practicing in such a way that I became hyper aware of them and how to naturally not let them impede what I was doing. O.k. But, you ain't gonna find out HOW you are doing without getting folks to shoot you down if you blow it. Best,
Brad Burt
|
|||||||||
Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-08-22 01:34, Brad Burt wrote: Great post Brad! One of the best posts EVER! And I've been here for some years... Must read for everyone! Really...
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
|
|||||||||
funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Yes, Brad -- tremendously inportant information to share, lessons applicable to all of life's endeavors, not just magic. Preparation, Execution and "Learning from failure" are a key to success. Yet, how does one know if they have "failed" in magic? As magic happens in the mind of the spectator we can only detect reactions and guess what they may mean.
I muse ... Perhaps you can share some insights on "what to observe." Applause might be a response to "being entertained" and not appreciation for the magic -- or just showing thans that you are finally done. A failure to applaud might indicate the spectator is caught in the throws of Whit's False Dilemma -- or some deeper thoughts prompted by your conguering of the impossible. Certainly, the shock and suprise reactions could indicate success of the magic, but does their absence indicate a failure of effect? We all have experience of having a person later share their "favorite effect" of yours that may not be what you expected at all. In this "two way communication" with the audience, what is the language of apprecaition of the magic as opposed to appreciation of the entertainment? Other threads suggest the need for a Director or "disinterested party" to aid in the assessment of success and failure. If one's goal is to "astonish" rather than "entertain," how do we determine what we have failed at? Great post ... More, more ...
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
|||||||||
Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
Thanks all for the kind comments...wow!
Ken: On the Astonish or Entertain question. For me it's always been a false dichotomy. I thought about this at length one time and came to the conclusion that at least for me 'ASTONISHMENT' ..... WAS...... 'entertaining.' I honestly believe that like gold having some kind of inherent 'value', a good magic effect, well done has 'inherent' value to entertain. Now, that said, I am NOT saying that it can't be made MORE entertaining. I think that it obviously can, but that's a different question. I have noted elsewhere that I have seen guys who have one trick to their name just WOW an audience. One guy I noted had this incredible little Red Snapper routine and I have seen the most basic Sam the Bellhop done to incredible response. Sooooo.... Very cool and interesting subject. Best,
Brad Burt
|
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Food for thought » » Have mercy: On sparing people from bad magic! (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page 1~2 [Next] |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.08 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |