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p0testi0 New user Orland Hills, IL 10 Posts |
I'm completely new to magic and I'm currently working on the basics of cards. In all of the tutorials that I have seen on Youtube, the Elmsley and Jordan counts are shown to have the cards start in one's right hand and move the cards to the left. I'm right handed and holding the cards in dealing position in my left hand and moving them FROM left to my right seems to be the only natural way to do this technique. Is there a problem with doing it backwards or does it not matter?
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mago.niko Loyal user Athens, Greece 286 Posts |
It's the same thing.. Otherwise left handed persons would have to learn a different techique for the Elsmley count..
If you want to learn some serious card magic, I would suggest you to go and get a dvd or a book.. Like Daryl's Encyclopedia of card sleights or Paul Wilson's ROyal road to card magic.. Youtube is for watching Michael Jackson's video clips... Not for learning magic Welcome to the Café mate!!
Searching for the magic side of life...
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mlippo Inner circle Trieste (Italy) 1227 Posts |
Daryl's and Wilson's DVD series are good stuff, but I would go for a book at the beginning. Royal Road to Card Magic which is an older book (so no false counts there) but is a very good basis for card magic or better still, if you can afford the whole series, Roberto Giobbi's Card College (five volumes). False counts are in volume three, but I suggest you learn other things before Elmsleys or Jordans ...
Just my advice though |
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whiteoakcanyon Special user 899 Posts |
All of the advice listed above is good from my perspective. I personally started with Michael Ammar's Easy To Master Card Miracles Volume One, and and after all these years, I still use the material taught on this DVD. This is where I would recommend for you to begin. You will learn sleights while learning some amazing tricks. The teaching is clear and thorough. But again, the advice given in the previous posts is also good. Good Luck and have fun.
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Kingman Loyal user Willow Spring NC 294 Posts |
Some very good advice. I would also add this; when you get stuck with a move post a video of yourself for the great people here to offer advice on. If you can find a local club to join that will also help you get further along.
Welcome to the forum and keep on practicing! Kingman |
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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
It's the "type" of Elmsley that is determinative. If you are doing the 'at the finger tips' form then the movement will, for a R.Handed person, be naturally Left to Right. IF on the other hand you are doing the count from a Mechanics Grip, the natural movement will be Right pushing off to the Left Hand palm.
It's one of the reasons that it can be odd to make the change from one to the other. It's not that it's particularly wrong for a R. Handed person to the learn the finger tip version with a Right to Left movement it's just not as natural. This is difficult to explain in print. What I could do in seconds live...well....it might be interesting to try... The common method of holding the deck for a R.H. person is in the L.H. for the same reason that a R.H. person wears their baseball glove on the L.H. and throws with the Dominant or R.H. Whether you are doing the finger tip or in the hand Elmsley you are going one direction or the other for the same reason. At the finger tips the movement as noted above is L. to R. because the cards are most naturally in the L.H. and because of their position HAVE to go to the R. If the cards are held in the Mechanics or dealing grip the most natural place R.H. would again BE the L.H., but because of the nature of the count the cards will be pulled BY the L.H. back to that hand, but note that the movement is FIRST towards the R.H. which instead of pushing them to the L.H. simply releases them, etc. Most important for anyone learning false counts is this: One hand should ALWAYS stay essentially motionless and the other hand do the movement. This lessens the confusion of two hands moving and heightens the illusion as cards are switched during the count. At first it will SEEM as if moving both hands during the count is a better way to go, but I can assure you it's not nearly as deceptive. Good luck!
Brad Burt
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p0testi0 New user Orland Hills, IL 10 Posts |
Wow! So many great replies. Thanks everyone. I'm glad to hear that it isn't something that I'm doing wrong or backwards. I'll see about getting a copy of Vol 1 of Card COllege. I've seen it recommended so many times.
mlippo (or anyone lease), what would you recommend that I start with before learning the Elmsley and the Jordan? |
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Kingman Loyal user Willow Spring NC 294 Posts |
Trying to list an order of sleights is not the way you should approach it. In general, learn how to handle the cards without crushing them. Learn how to have a soft touch when you do basic utility moves like shuffling and cutting. Even squaring the deck is a move when done properly. Then you should decide on the type of act that you want to do. What is your character? What is your style? Who is your intended audience? Questions like these will lead you to determine which effects you should look at learning and then what sleights will make those effects into a routine that you can do comfortably.
Don't just jump in learning sleights or you will have a hard time moving to routining. My opinion only, but take it for what is worth. Kingman |
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mlippo Inner circle Trieste (Italy) 1227 Posts |
P0testi0
I recommended the Card College series as a must if you really want to get into card magic. Beware that being a complete course it starts from the very basic as holding a pack of cards, how to really shuffle and cut it and then starts talking about sleights and effects. As I said the false counts come in volume 3. In the meantime (this is what I did) leave around a pack of cards. Everytime you have a few spare minutes pick up four cards, reverse the third from the top and then try an Elmsley count. This positions the reversed card at the bottom. So now perform a Jordan. Now the reversed card is third from the top again. Elsmley count and so on ... A good effect to learn along with the Elmsley is the classic handling of Vernon's Twisting the Aces. Anyway I used to Elmsley count from left to right hand when I started magic. When I got into it again, I got the Card College books and I then re-learnt it counting from right to left. It took me a while to learn it that way (I am right handed), but I am happy I did. PM me if you have any more questions |
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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts |
Mlippo: I recommend my The Classic Collection volumes as a "must" for you, and anyone else.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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mlippo Inner circle Trieste (Italy) 1227 Posts |
Harry,
just to make things clear, this is a list of books written by you which I own (in no particular order): Best of Friends vol. 1, vol. 2 & vol. 3 Rim Shots Quantum Leaps Close Up Card Magic The Classics of Ken Krenzel Personal Secrets I am glad I have them. They all contain good things + some classics and yet I still cannot help recommending the Card College Series to anyone interested in learning card magic from scratch. They are a terrific source for techniques, good effects + some classics but also a source of audience management, psychology, effect and routine construction and more. Your books do not contain these things and a newbie needs to learn them as much as he/she needs to know what your HaLo Cut or your Out Of This Universe are (just to cite two of your brainchildren). Once one has learnt and digested a good amount of Card College (not necessarily all) he/she can then start reading other great books out there as the Vernon's books (by Lewis Ganson), Michael Skinner, John Bannon's and (why not) yours. Obviously this is my personal opinion which I think I have the right to express. Obviously you don't agree since, as you have made quite clear to all of us in many of your your posts, your opinion is that only your books are worth reading since they are the best ones ever written. Obviously I do not agree with your opinion, but you have the right to express it ... Now, before you reply that I am not experienced enough since this is only my 25th post, let me say that being a new forum user doesn't mean being the last arrived in this beautiful magic world. I have re-started studying it seriously again after many years, during which I have never ever abandoned it completely; suffice to say that half of your books I own were purchased during that 'idle' period. I will not reiterate my opinion in this post in spite of the inevitable reply from you I will receive. I know you have a good memory and that you will not forget my nickname from now on ... Best regards mlippo |
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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts |
Hey mlippo: Of course you are entitled to your opinion - I have NEVER, ever, said otherwise to or about anyone. What you really are NOT entitled to is to put your words into my mouth. Here are your words to me from your above post: "Obviously you don't agree since, as you have made quite clear to all of us in many of your posts, your opinion is that only your books are worth reading since they are the best ones ever written".
Please, please, PLEASE, show us all even one - just one - example where I wrote/said ANYTHING like that - Please! Let me tell you something - even if I felt that way, which I don't, I AM REALLY NOT STUPID ENOUGH TO SAY SO!!! Perhaps you heard or read others saying things like that, I sure as heck never have. Other than that, let me repeat, I will fight to the death for your right to your opinion (even if and when IT'S WRONG). But I will NEVER, ever, put words into your mouth that don't belong there. I do NOT do sillinesses like that. I do, however, suggest one or another of my books when I THINK IT IS APROPOS TO DO SO, and if I think it WILL HELP THE OP. Hopefully, that is okay with you. Best Regards - Harry L.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts |
Oh, not important at all, but I might also differ with your definite statement, mlippo, that "Your books do not contain these things..." (meaning "... audience management, psychology, effect and routine construction and more.[/i]" In my opinion, my books certainl DO. But, just my humble opinion. Best - HL.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts |
Still waiting for that one example - so far, no such.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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Kingman Loyal user Willow Spring NC 294 Posts |
Not just your opinion Harry. Not that you need my defending, but I find that your materials are great examples of audience handling and routine construction. The psychology is obvious if only demonstrated by what you get away with right under the spectator's noses.
Kingman |
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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts |
Thanks, Kingman. I always have to state these things as an "opinion," because otherwise I get the "knowledgeable" mlippos screaming, plus (and even worse) putting stupid words in my mouth as he did here, words I simply would never DREAM of uttering. Plus; he sure as heck doesn't SEE what you're pointing out - in MY OPINION. I do apprecuate your pointing it out, Kingman. Thanks again. Harry L.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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krowboom Loyal user Chicago area 233 Posts |
To me the most natural way to do an Elmsley count (and it's the one slight I feel I do well) is start with the cards in your left hand (assuming you're right handed). As you count you use the right hand to do the push off but basically the cards never leave the left hand. Take a look at my you tube trick which uses Elmsley counts to see what I mean. I have tried doing the Elmsley several different ways but this feels the most natural and in my opinion looks the most natural and the most deceptive. No one has ever caught me and believe me I have done this hundreds of times in many many tricks. The Jordan count is similar but I rarely use it as most tricks don't call for it. Hope this helps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXgDI57_2b8 |
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Kingman Loyal user Willow Spring NC 294 Posts |
That is an extremely natural looking count! Very well done
Kingman |
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mlippo Inner circle Trieste (Italy) 1227 Posts |
Krowboom,
I like the way you do it! It's just as I learnt it from volume 3 of the wonderful Card College series. As I wrote in one of the above posts, it took me a while to go from the left-to-right to right-to-left counting (counting at the fingertips which I feel is not good technique had gone long ago). p0testi0, if you're still thinking of learning this technique now, watch his video in order to have an idea of what it should look like. mlippo |
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mlippo Inner circle Trieste (Italy) 1227 Posts |
Kingman
I did not say that Lorayne's book contain poorly contructed effects/routines. I said that Giobbi, but now let me add Ortiz (in his 'Strong Magic' or in his 'Designing Miracles') or Eugene Burger in most of his books or even Tamariz, actually explain in detail how a good routine is contructed and why it is better to do things one way rather than another. This helps the newbie to start thinking and developing his routines/acts independently. Finding the stuff ready is OK at the beginning (like Lorayne's Ambitious Card or his Amazing Prediction which are wonderful routines in my opinion), but if no one points out strong and weak points to you, you might never actually understand and be able to spot them yourself (unless you are extremely talented, of course). And you want to be able to, so that you can eventually go along the way on your own. In my personal case (I am NOT extremely talented), having had access to an essay as found at the end of Card College 2 when I was twenty, would have been a great thing. If you've never read it, please do and then tell me if it's not a wonderful source on how to handle difficult situations. Lorayne's books (at least the ones I've read - see list above + I have read many Apocalypse issues) do not explain this sort of thing. Since these sources are now available, why not use them at our advantage? And why not advise new comers to the magic world that hundreds and hundreds of pages of good (and often not so good) routines is not all there is to it. If I recommend Card College, it's not just for the tricks, but also for all the little details that Giobbi continuously puts in his explanations. They might not all fit your style, but he says that. You must always use your head (thanks Professor) and adapt everything to yourself. The Royal Road To Card Magic is also a good book (altough a little outdated on certain things) to start learning card magic, but if combined to Expert Card Techinque, because of the chapters about routining and presentation that you can find at the end of this second book. Why are newbies terrified to perform in public? My personal experience was that the most feared situation was to screw up an Elmsley or lose a to-be-controlled card or not being able to face a particularely bad audience member. It's correct to say they you've got to practice and practice in order not to find yourself in these situations, but it can happen, even to an experienced amateur (professionals are less likely, I think). It's unacceptable, in my opinion, just to say that 'it must not happen'. If I had read (when I was twenty) the above cited essay from Card College 2, I may have got over my 'stage fright' sooner, better and with less anxiety. I hope I have made my point. English is not my mothertongue, so I may have been a little unclear sometimes. In this case I deeply apologise to everyone. mlippo |
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