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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricks & Effects » » The Cylinder and Coins by John Ramsay (4 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Larry Davidson
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Quote:
On 2003-09-03 12:44, John Kokot wrote:
Watching Tim Conover's exquisite performance of this routine will lead you to believe that he has trap doors in his hands.


Everything Tim does is exquisite. He's one of the top magicians for laymen and fries magicians in the process.

Larry
Chris S
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You can find Tim on the Tomfoolery Anniversay Bash tape. His performance is FLAWLESS. I can't think of anybody else who comes close to his smoothness (even Carney).

I have said it before, though, and I will say it again. The props do not make sense. As Jon alluded to, this was a routine designed to take in "the boys" and while there have been handling refinements over the years, the inherent "oddness" of the props remain. This routine is begging to be contemporised/commercialised to make it more logical for laypeople. It has almost gotten to the point where it is more of a rite of passage for the coin worker rather than a workable routine for the lay public. I know people are out there performing it (and from their accounts doing quite well), but the old chestnut that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" does not seem to apply here (indeed, some of the beast leaps in magic have occurred when people have defied convention and taken a different road). No matter how well you provide a quasi-justification for the leather cylinder and cork, they will always be "props" to a laypersons eyes.
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Dan Watkins
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Quote:
On 2003-09-03 23:34, Chris S wrote:
they will always be "props" to a laypersons eyes.


So are sponge balls, Morgan Silver Dollars, Silver half dollars, English Pennies, linking rings, Dean's Boxes, etc. etc.

Magic routines are allowed to have props imho. The strangest things can be explained with the proper story.
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Chris S
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Yes, but its a shorter trip for the audience to beleive that magic is happening when they are seeing either items that are common in their everyday lives and hence they do not expect to be the conduit for magical events (such as Healed and Sealed Soda), or items that, although perhaps slightly less familiar, are capable of having their presence being justified effectively (think coin purse,for example). The leather cylinder and the piece of cork satisfy neither of these requirements.

I have given this a lot of thought and the result seems,at least to me, to be a very simple rule - the more unfamiliar the prop (or the greater NUMBER of props required),the further you distance the audience from where they are now to the conclusion that what they are going to see is due to magic, and not the inherent secrets of the prop (whether they actually exist or not is irrelevent - perception is king). Don't get me wrong, you can still take them to that moment of astonishment (thank you PH!), but you will need to not only meet their expectations that the strange object in front of them is going to make magic happen, but exceed those expectations. When it comes to the C&C, which is really "just" a transposition like any other, the burden of justifying a leather cylinder and a piece of cork becomes a fight that you need not wage at all if you use a little creativity and lateral thinking to redesign the props. The answers are all there to acheive this and bring the audience just that little bit closer to the edge...

By the way, I could not agree more about the sponge balls and Dean's box being odd props, but the coins do not really belong in the same category. Laypeople know that foreign and old coins come in all varieties and the excuse that you like to use beautiful coins for a beautiful effect is completely rational in the layperson's mind (don't get me wrong though,I ALWAYS would use the current money whenever it is possible in preference to the smoothest Morgan). Once again, the rule seems to fit - to break past the "trick coin" perception barrier, your effect is going to have to be something very special. You can almost entirely bypass this barrier by using the legal tender of the day.
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Dan Watkins
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Chris,

I typically don’t carry around Cylinder and Coins – it’s definitely not an impromptu “do anywhere” routine. Most of the stuff I focus on is done with coins in my or the spectator’s hands done standing.

With that said – I have found that the introduction of a strange prop is not in itself a bad thing. Look at Roth’s routines like the Tuning Fork, The Globe, The Rainbow, the Portable Hole, The Funnel, The Sleeve, etc. they are unique props. David’s formal routines utilizing these strange items have literally made a reputation for him.

The Cylinder is no different. It has its time and place.

I am using Thomas Wayne's Cylinder with the cocobolo end caps so everything is self contained and easy to carry and launch right into - I also eliminated the use of a wand.

Last week I brought my cylinder and coins to work. When I get a spare moment I run through the vanishes. I JUST so happened to have the cylinder in my pocket when I walked into the employee lunch room. One of the employee’s wife was visiting and he immediately asked me to show her some magic.

I only had the cylinder on me at that moment so I did the routine. Neither of them saw the routine before, had no idea what I was going to do, and both almost died when I revealed the coins in the cylinder, under the cork. The immediate reversal also got a wonderful response.

Just a minute ago I went out to the shop and asked this guy what he thought about the props – did he find them strange, etc.? He told me that when I first took out the cylinder he had no idea what I was going to do. He did not know what the cork piece was for. But he said it was interesting because he did not know what I was going to do with them and it created curiosity in him. During the buildup of the routine – I plainly show the cylinder, show the cork slice, and explain that the routine is not so much about the cylinder or the little cork as it is about these coins… The cork does play an important part later in the routine, just for now remember that it is underneath the cylinder right here (as I put the cylinder over the cork on the table). Then move on.

He saw the props, saw that nothing was fishy about them, and put his attention on the coins as I instructed. He told me that the use of the cylinder and the cork became plain as day during the climax of the routine, that it was amazing that the coins could not only get in the cylinder but UNDER the cork. He did not feel that the props hindered the routine and he said it was amazing.

I did the routine for a handful of people that same day – every one of them reacted very strongly to the routine. I briefly asked a few of them if they felt that the cylinder or the cork confused them or hindered the routine in their eyes.

No one told me that the props were a problem; they all felt that it was an amazing routine. I had more than one comment that they found the items interesting and the fact that they do not know what is going to happen with them created interest.

I have come to my own personal conclusion that there are benefits to using strange objects that pique curiosity of the spectator. Your whole repertoire shouldn’t be that way – but I have received great responses from laypeople for C&C and it is fun to perform, so for now it’s a keeper.
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only4card
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Dan,

I agree with your points. one of my old friend show me the C&C routine.It' s beautiful and amazing!

Personally I like C&C more than Dean's Explosion.
TheAmbitiousCard
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I thought everybody had a Dean's Box?

Personally, I would never buy a Dean's Box for exactly the reason that I would not buy hardly any magic store magic. The "MAGIC" happens inside the box. I think this is bad, bad, bad.

Just like all the stage magicians in vegas producing tigers inside a box... bad, bad, bad.

Or worse yet... walking the lady back over to the funny floor when it's time to re-vanish her
(talk about BAD!)

I think props are great as long as they are not the shiney, magic store kind.
I went a Copperfield show last year and he vanished a duck and a "magic-looking" box...I rolled my eyes. Then he made it re-appear inside a "bunny-bucket" or whatever they're called (wooden bucket with split lid) and I thought "hey, magic".

But Dan is right. If it fit's the story, it will work.

C&C always gets a great reaction for me from audiences of all ages.

In fact the first time I performed it was for a bunch of my daughters friends 9-10 year olds at our home (interrupted their video and everything). I thought.. "I just have to go for it". After I was done, they all spontaneously clapped. That never happens in a totally impromptu "Hey, let me show you something" environment in my home, believe me.

Obviously, it's not the cylinder or the cork that made them clap, it's the whole thing; routine, presentation, props.

It's a classy piece with mystery and tension, and lots of magic.

And for the magician, what a lesson in directing audience attention!!!


Quote:
On 2003-09-04 03:13, Dan Watkins wrote:
Quote:
On 2003-09-03 23:34, Chris S wrote:
they will always be "props" to a laypersons eyes.


So are sponge balls, Morgan Silver Dollars, Silver half dollars, English Pennies, linking rings, Dean's Boxes, etc. etc.

Magic routines are allowed to have props imho. The strangest things can be explained with the proper story.
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jerdunn
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Quote:
On 2003-09-05 11:54, Frank Starsini wrote:
Personally, I would never buy a Dean's Box for exactly the reason that I would not buy hardly any magic store magic. The "MAGIC" happens inside the box. I think this is bad, bad, bad.

Just like all the stage magicians in vegas producing tigers inside a box... bad, bad, bad.


To me there's a difference. Dean's Box is done close-up, spectators handle the box and ropes, they look inside the box, and so on. Very different from a box that's 100 feet away on a stage.

The box (like the silver coins and leather cylinder) is an object of interest to people. It lends itself to engrossing story lines. So I just don't agree that the box is "bad."

Maybe I'll have to learn a C and C routine, though.

Cheers,
Jerry
Larry Davidson
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I avoid almost all strange looking props.

I'm with Frank on Dean's box. It's much too alien looking for my liking which makes it nothing more than a puzzle in my opinion (albeit, a very good one). Yes, it can be examined, but so can many other puzzles.

The cylinder in Cylinder and Coins is not an everday object either, but it's nowhere near as alien looking as Dean's box and so I wouldn't necessarily avoid it. It's a question of degree.
only4card
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Any video for learning the C&C ? Thanks
Dan Watkins
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International Magic has a video called "The Magic of John Ramsay Vol. 1" (there are two volumes) that has John Ramsay's student, Andrew Galloway perform the original Ramsay handling. The original had a lot of extra feints and moves that were specific to trying to throw off magicians of the day - Ramsay purposely constructed stuff to specifically fool magicians.

The John Carney version written in Carneycopia is a streamlined version and one of the best. John will have a DVD available that teaches this routine it is already complete, but he hasn't yet offered it for public sale - keep an eye on his website http://www.carneymagic.com.
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MJ Marrs
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That's very good news to hear about the Carney DVD! A while ago I purchased a cylinder and coin stack from Thomas Wayne. I've got Carney's book, but seeing everything will make learning from the book a little easier. I'm looking forward to finally starting to learn this routine.
Dan LeFay
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I had the pleasure to see John perform his C&C for me extremely up-close. The effect is not very well known where I live and I have to admit it was the very first time I ever saw anybody perform it. OK, John is not just anybody...
I think it's enough to mention his performance inspired me to go for it. It looks incredible in his hands.
I was not aware that his DVD was not available yet, since I have one. It's worth the waiting. I have rarely seen a DVD that's so in-depth on " only" two routines as this one. My favorite catch on the last FISM!

The routine is considered difficult. I think it might be even more difficult to make it work and make it interesting for the real world. But John has surely wet my appetite...
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magicday
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What is the different between Andrew Galloway and John Carney 's routine or handling of C&C . Thanks
zhuanan
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Quote:
On 2003-09-02 18:40, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
The trick is John Ramsay's take on the 'cap and pence'.

Ross Bertram has a very similar method published.

What attracts folks to the routine is the hope of garnering some insight into what make John Ramsay so memorable. The routine, and a the rest of his material is not particularly difficult. It did however completly fool the 'in' crowd at the time { 1920s }

For some the routine is a sort of badge to denote moving from routines focussing on just a couple of coins to those involving 'more'. For others, a challenge to make coins vanish in some way that builds suspense. The vanishes are supposed to look better and more convincing as they happen.

'The Ramsay Classics' was 24.99 when published. Perhaps H&R could find you a copy.

These routines give you the opportunity to work from mechanics alone. No hint of how John Ramsay performed is presented. I sought out Vernon and Schawartzman on this.

The big puzzle and challenge of that routine... and John Ramasy's work in general has to do with performing the tricks. Just doing them presents the audience with a puzzle, and nothing more. John Ramsay was liked, and some comments are made here and there about his sense of humor. Such is the challenge of his material.

The props are cheap. That was one of his jokes. Scotsman=cheap.

I won't comment on how his routines are performed. Might have to visit Scotland and look up Mr Galloway.





Hi Jonathan:


As per your earlier quote, you mentioned that H & R can could find a copy of the Ramsay Classics. May I know who/where is H & R? I would really love to obtain a copy to learn the magic of John Ramsay.

Thank you!
Harry Murphy
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H & R magic books can be found at:
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Pete Biro
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Dean Dill has devised a Coins and Cylinder routine that even I can do... it is totally awesome and has an added kicker climax that will fry magicians and laymen alike.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
jerdunn
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Pete -- will Dean Dill be releasing his routine?

Thanks,
Jerry
helder
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Great presentation here of this classic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6zTyzyUlxE

Love it.


Does anyone know any news about the Kohler dvd?
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John C
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One of the best IMHO versions of this classic.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBzaLxaiBhA&t=450s
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