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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricks & Effects » » The Cylinder and Coins by John Ramsay (4 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Gipstein
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I have been doing magic over 50 years. I saw Eric Mead do this on Penn & Teller and was intrigued. I have a stack of JFKs and a cylinder on order. In playing with my various coins and gaffs in thinking about whether to pursue this trick, I realized that using my John Journey triple split JFK and a sh***, making the 4 coins disappear and reappear is retentively simple,. I have used the triple split as part of a stand alone routine for years. Along with the sh***, the coins combine into a single one, ultimately, which makes handling them and concealing them not so knuckle busting. With a little thought, they can displayed in ways that make them all seem quite legit (two sided). I will see if my theory on this works out when I start to perform it. My version would not use a wand, though it could. The overall effect is very magical, as Mead and others to be found on YouTube elegantly show. If using some gaffs to help make it simpler, I will do so. Only magicians care about methods, and if a simpler method achieves the same effect as complex ones, I will always go for simple. I don't care about proving myself as a knuckle-buster champ, just as a magician presenting an entertaining bit of impossibility and wonder. That said, even using the triple split/sh*** the routine is not that easy or self-working. I will also play with using the coins before or after with a routine by Gea, or double-deception, or whatever. The C&C certainly stands alone and maybe should be left alone. But once the coins are out, maybe a little more could be done with them. As for props being unusual, I have never had anyone find that an issue. Since I have worked for National Geographic such of my career I can get away with stories of exotic places and times and justify props that way. But even when I don't do this, I think folks just sit up and watch and don't get into the props too much unless we direct them to or over-justify why we are using them. I don't run if I;'m not being chased.
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John C
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I do not believe there exists an “easy” way to do this effect.

It is raw, unadulterated skill. Period.

The ironic thing about it is....John Ramsey wasn’t even a magician. He was a grocer. Haha
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John C
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Quote:
On Sep 4, 2003, Chris S wrote:
Yes, but its a shorter trip for the audience to beleive that magic is happening when they are seeing either items that are common in their everyday lives and hence they do not expect to be the conduit for magical events (such as Healed and Sealed Soda), or items that, although perhaps slightly less familiar, are capable of having their presence being justified effectively (think coin purse,for example). The leather cylinder and the piece of cork satisfy neither of these requirements.

I have given this a lot of thought and the result seems,at least to me, to be a very simple rule - the more unfamiliar the prop (or the greater NUMBER of props required),the further you distance the audience from where they are now to the conclusion that what they are going to see is due to magic, and not the inherent secrets of the prop (whether they actually exist or not is irrelevent - perception is king). Don't get me wrong, you can still take them to that moment of astonishment (thank you PH!), but you will need to not only meet their expectations that the strange object in front of them is going to make magic happen, but exceed those expectations. When it comes to the C&C, which is really "just" a transposition like any other, the burden of justifying a leather cylinder and a piece of cork becomes a fight that you need not wage at all if you use a little creativity and lateral thinking to redesign the props. The answers are all there to acheive this and bring the audience just that little bit closer to the edge...

By the way, I could not agree more about the sponge balls and Dean's box being odd props, but the coins do not really belong in the same category. Laypeople know that foreign and old coins come in all varieties and the excuse that you like to use beautiful coins for a beautiful effect is completely rational in the layperson's mind (don't get me wrong though,I ALWAYS would use the current money whenever it is possible in preference to the smoothest Morgan). Once again, the rule seems to fit - to break past the "trick coin" perception barrier, your effect is going to have to be something very special. You can almost entirely bypass this barrier by using the legal tender of the day.



Let’s break it down to it’s simplest component. It’s called entertainment.
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Gipstein
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I am not saying my method is so much easier. Rather, I think it is more convincing in that I can display my hands as quite empty more often that most of the presentations I have seen. I can do this effect with regular Morgans and one sh***, or even just 4 regular Morgans. But there are times when you just can't show your empty hands. My routine allows for totally clean displays of the coins and only 1 or 2passing moments when I have to conceal a palmed coin. I think that makes it very magical. The coins simply vanish and reappear, even after I've show empty hands. It still takes careful sleights and routining to make it work but the gaff allows for displays that real coins do not. I've watched different routines and there are some awkward moves (IMHO) to deal with the 4 coins. For example, why pick up 3 or 4 coins just to put them down, retaining one? Why not just pick up one? I can do that. Anyway, I am very happy with how my routine is going. As far as justifying the props, I don't think I will worry too much about that. I may or may not use a cork. I ay use something else. It could even be a life saver. The cylinder makes sense as a way to cover the coins & the cork. Maybe I will add a lid and use it earlier in a dice effect. It looks like a dice cup. Then take off the cover. I'll see. I have found that either not mentioning I am using old coins works, or saying that I happen to like them for their beauty works, too. I find lay audiences are quite accepting of many things that we magicians sometimes worry they question. Its all about how they are presented, what context is established, and how strong the ultimate effect is.
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John C
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Quote:
On May 14, 2020, Gipstein wrote:
I am not saying my method is so much easier. Rather, I think it is more convincing in that I can display my hands as quite empty more often that most of the presentations I have seen. I can do this effect with regular Morgans and one sh***, or even just 4 regular Morgans. But there are times when you just can't show your empty hands. My routine allows for totally clean displays of the coins and only 1 or 2passing moments when I have to conceal a palmed coin. I think that makes it very magical. The coins simply vanish and reappear, even after I've show empty hands. It still takes careful sleights and routining to make it work but the gaff allows for displays that real coins do not. I've watched different routines and there are some awkward moves (IMHO) to deal with the 4 coins. For example, why pick up 3 or 4 coins just to put them down, retaining one? Why not just pick up one? I can do that. Anyway, I am very happy with how my routine is going. As far as justifying the props, I don't think I will worry too much about that. I may or may not use a cork. I ay use something else. It could even be a life saver. The cylinder makes sense as a way to cover the coins & the cork. Maybe I will add a lid and use it earlier in a dice effect. It looks like a dice cup. Then take off the cover. I'll see. I have found that either not mentioning I am using old coins works, or saying that I happen to like them for their beauty works, too. I find lay audiences are quite accepting of many things that we magicians sometimes worry they question. Its all about how they are presented, what context is established, and how strong the ultimate effect is.


Make a video. Sounds exciting. Let’s see a demo.
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magic.99
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The ironic thing about it is....John Ramsey wasn’t even a magician. He was a grocer. Haha
While he was not a 'professional' magician, I always thought that Mr. Ramsay was an 'amateur' magician. Much more than just a "grocer"...Mush like the master Artruo de Ascanio was a lawyer, and considered himself an "amateur magician"...
magic.99
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John Carney goes into very good detail, including the 'misdirection' needed for this routine on his wonderful 'Carney on Ramsay' DVD. If you want to study this routine, Carney's DVD is a must have.
Mad Jake
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Quote:
On Aug 2, 2020, magic.99 wrote:
The ironic thing about it is....John Ramsey wasn’t even a magician. He was a grocer. Haha
While he was not a 'professional' magician, I always thought that Mr. Ramsay was an 'amateur' magician. Much more than just a "grocer"...Mush like the master Artruo de Ascanio was a lawyer, and considered himself an "amateur magician"...


Could you possibly try to explain your remark in this post. I don't understand "Was not a magician."

-MJJ
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Steven Leung
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The effect is not popular, in my opinion, due to the requirement of props, and props involve cost quite something (for dollar coins).

Over the years, I tried to get everything, but still missing the cork piece.

Cylinder and coins I really hope that I can perform one day.
Most memorable moment - with Maestro Juan Tamariz & Consuelo Lorgia in FISM Busan 2018.

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MJ Marrs
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Quote:
On Aug 21, 2020, Steven Leung wrote:
The effect is not popular, in my opinion, due to the requirement of props, and props involve cost quite something (for dollar coins).

Over the years, I tried to get everything, but still missing the cork piece.

Cylinder and coins I really hope that I can perform one day.


Frank at The Ambitious Card includes a cork with his cylinders.

It took me forever to completely assemble a nice set of props for C & C: Bought an awesome cylinder with end caps from Thomas Wayne years ago along with a beautiful cocobola wand. Had a matching set of coins (Deans Set) and stack from Jamie Schoolcraft. A high quality close up pad from Dan & Dave. I loved the idea of the drink coaster as a small stage that Conover/Mead employed so I searched for a nice antique set of coasters rather than a cheap set. I really like the inherent congruence of the cork portion of the coaster matching the use of the small piece of cork as it has a nice bit of internal logic added. I bought Carney’s wonderful book as well as his DVD and even took a seminar with him in order to get started. I’m anxiously waiting for the Conover book to be finished up as I’d love to add some of the finesse from Eric Mead. It’s been a wonderful journey for a routine that I’ll work on forever. Like Michael Weber says, “done but never finished.”
theoriginalman
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Does anyone know what coins Eric Mead is using in his Fool Us routine?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBzaLxaiBhA&t=450s
MJ Marrs
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Those are soft Morgans.

By the way, anybody catch the awesome five seconds of Mead’s TT/3CM routine at the beginning of the “Fool Us” episode. It’s at the Intro section around the 30 second mark. Everything Eric does is so good. Super smooth.
Harry Murphy
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Chris Hannibal has a superior routine and handling of the C&C using a Push-up-Pop tube (stiff paper) and the necessary coins, etc. All the props are well motivated and do not seem out of place or like "props". It is all driven by a good story accompanied by the skill needed to make the routine entertaining and magical.

It can be found on his DVD set "The Truth from a Liar". Good stuff on the 2 volume set on top of a great handling of the C&C.
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Rainboguy
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This trick is, in my opinion, one of, if not THE hardest trick in Magic to perform.

If you can do it without any of the coins talking, you're well on your way to becoming a MASTER. As JOHN C states above, it requires raw, unadulterated skill.

And yes, Eric Mead performed the best version I have ever seen. I suggest learning this from John Carney's Carneycopia.
Boomer
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I just bought the set from Tom Ladshaw's website. Arrived in a couple days and looks fantastic.
(Leather tube, walking liberty coins & stack included with little blocks.

$59US, which I thought was quite reasonable.

I've been reading through Carneycopia & Coin Magic to see what strikes me)


Dave
Magic Mark
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If the standard Cylinder & Coins routine is too challenging for you (it's too challenging for me, that's for sure), you might want to consider Sam King's single coin Cylinder & Coin routine (skip to 2:45 for the start of the routine):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX7Kz-M1Ddk

I purchased one of Sam's excellent leather cylinders and got his routine included. He does a great job of explaining every step of the routine and uses multiple camera angles.

His routine still requires skill and practice, but much less so than the standard Cylinder & Coins routine.

I have an immense amount of respect for Eric Mead. But I also know my own limitations. I have enough trouble clas**c p*lm*ng ONE coin, let alone several. Sam King's routine is perfect for me. Recommended!

Info in this thread:

https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view......c=727005


Mark
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