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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2011-10-08 22:40, tommy wrote:
The US is at war because of Islamic fundamentalists who have committed atrocities......allegedly.

It was a lie, started by evil people and spread by gullible fools.


Which part?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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The part that you spread.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Jonathan Townsend
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When someone makes a move
of which we don't approve
... till somebody we like can get elected
...to all the coins I've dropped here
LobowolfXXX
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You mean the planes weren't hijacked, they didn't hit the Twin Towers and the Pentagon, AND the non-hijackers weren't Islamic fundamentalists?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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Please don't be so dishonest by trying to put words into my mouth, Mr Lawyer.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2011-10-08 23:03, tommy wrote:
Please don't be so dishonest by trying to put words into my mouth, Mr Lawyer.


Well, if you weren't deliberately trying to be too vague to be refuted...

I mean, I *did* ask you which part was a lie.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Chance
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How about you quit baiting Lobo, and tell us all what you think about something for a change? Go ahead and expose your innermost beliefs to public riddicule for once.
landmark
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Quote:
On 2011-10-08 22:54, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
When someone makes a move
of which we don't approve
... till somebody we like can get elected

Send the Marines!
What was amusing in my youth becomes depressing when it is still true 40-odd years later.
LobowolfXXX
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Man, I even got Chance sticking up for me! October is shaping up to be an interesting month.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2011-10-08 22:19, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
I was at a book launch yesterday. A friend of mine created some school-level materials about the Ukrainian internment in Canada during the first world war. Innocent people were placed in forced labour camps because they originated in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, which was now an official enemy. The story is a horror. These people were stripped of their rights not for anything that they did, but for their ethnicity and place of birth. I don't know if a similar atrocity occurred in the US.

30 years later Japanese-Canadians and -Americans were stripped of their property and forced into internment camps. Again they had done nothing wrong. They lost their citizenship rights because of their race.

Across the Atlantic, 6 million Jews were killed for no crimes of their own, but because of their ethnicity. Many sought refuge in other countries; many were turned away.

What does this have to do with this conversation? The US is at war because of Islamic fundamentalists who have committed atrocities. As in the first two examples above, war was waged against the perpetrators; and back home the innocent are vilified. Are we no better than our xenophobic predecessors? Are Muslims living in American automatically guilty of anything? Are they less citizens than their next-door neighbours?

When the Holocaust was happening, much of the silence was justified by beliefs in a worldwide Jewish conspiracy. It was a lie, started by evil people and spread by gullible fools.

Have we learned nothing in the past century?

John


I suspect that your average interred Japanese-American circa the 1940s would say that we've learned quite a lot, and that 21st century American is far more dissimilar than similar to the version 65 or 70 years ago (let alone 100!) But it's been about 10 years since I've interviewed one.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Chance
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Lobo, you read the emphasis backwards. That message was directed at you. I'm waiting to hear what Lobo believes for once, instead of just equivocating and then picking apart what everyone else says without revealing anything of your own that could be subjected to scrutiny.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2011-10-09 00:43, Chance wrote:
Lobo, you read the emphasis backwards. That message was directed at you. I'm waiting to hear what Lobo believes for once, instead of just equivocating and then picking apart what everyone else says without revealing anything of your own that could be subjected to scrutiny.


Ahhh, dang.

I have to tell you, and I don't mean this antagonistically, but if you're "waiting to hear what [I believe] for once," then man, you haven't been paying attention. Those opportunities come around all the time, and I'm pretty explicit about it.

With respect to this thread (and this latest sub-thread), I think that Muslim fundamentalists hijacked some planes and flew them into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon, killing thousands of people in the process. And I think that makes the following:

Quote:
On 2011-10-08 22:40, tommy wrote:
The US is at war because of Islamic fundamentalists who have committed atrocities......allegedly.

It was a lie, started by evil people and spread by gullible fools.


pretty much nonsensical.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Chance
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Do you think that the attacks were aided or abetted by any person(s) and/or organization(s) within the federal government?
critter
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The federal government of Afghanistan?
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Woland
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Thanks for the interesting historical review, Magnus. You raise some important points that we would all do well to keep in mind.

1) First of all, with regards to the internment of German or Austro-Hungarian aliens in Canada and the United States during the Great War. You refer to the Canadian internment of Ukrainians originating in the Austro-Hungarian Empire as an "atrocity." I think that if you want to talk about "atrocities" affecting Ukrainians, a better example would be the Holodomor, or deliberate famine when, by a deliberate "redistribution" of food supplies within the Soviet Union, Stalin's government murdered --through starvation-- about 5 million Ukrainians. I think the term "atrocity" when applied to the Canadian internment is a bit overboard.

2) There was a smaller internment of aliens in the United States during the Great War. Remember, that the United States did not declare war until April 1917, after the fall of the Tsar's absolutist regime made an alliance with Russia acceptable and after unrestricted German attacks on American shipping provided an immediate causus belli. During the one year or so that America was in the war, there was a great deal of concern and suspicion about German nationals and German-Americans in the United States (the prohibitionists inveighed against Germans they said were more dangerous to America than the Kaiser, for example: Joseph Schlitz, August Busch, Frederick Miller etc) but there were few significant internments. No US citizens were interned, but approximately 2,000 German nationals who were citizens of other countries, were interned at one of two forts in Georgia and Utah - including 29 players in the Boston Symphony Orchestra. Remember that German-Americans comprised one of the largest immigrant populations in the United States at that time. Most of the big cities along the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers (Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Louisville, Minneapolis-St Paul, St Louis) had very large if not predominantly German-American populations, and German was up until 1918 widely spoken in those cities, some of which even had German-language public elementary schools.

3) During the Second World War, as you note, Japanese nationals and Japanese Americans on the American mainland were interned, and many lost their property in the process. (Japanese in Hawaii, where they comprised a significant part of the population, incidentally were not interned; and it is well-known, but deserves to be remembered again, that the most decorated fighting unit in the history of the United States Army, the 442nd Regimental Combat Team, was an all-Japanese unit recruited mainly in Hawaii, where 10,000 Japanese-American men volunteered - 3,000 were enrolled along with 800 from the mainland. Eventually, with replacements, about 14,000 Japanese-Americans served in the 442nd. The men of the 442nd earned more than 18,000 awards including 21 Medals of Honor, 52 DSCs, 560 Silver Stars, 4,000 Bronze Stars, and almost 10,000 Purple Hearts.) Incidentally, the internment of the Japanese was ordered by Franklin Roosevelt, upon the recommendation of California Governor Earl Warren.

Although not widely known, German nationals and Italian nationals were also interned in the United States during the Second World War. About 2,000 Italian nationals were interned, and for a while various restrictions were placed on other Italians in the United States. About 11,000 Germans living in the United States and about 5,000 Germans from Latin America were interned during the war.

4) The massacre of European Jews by the National-Socialist German regime was altogether different from the internments of Ukrainians, Germans, Japanese, and Italians in North America. The Endloesung was not a program of internment, but of extermination; it was intended to be an actual genocide in the fullest, correct sense; that is, not merely a massacre or a mass killing, but the actual elimination from the world of an entire national people. And it was very nearly successful; over 90% of the Jews in the occupied Eastern countries were in fact killed - roughly half of the Jewish population in the world.

The sentiments that motivated the National-Socialist extermination campaign were altogether different than the sentiments which motivated the internment of suspected aliens in the United States and (I presume) Canada in the First and Second World Wars. By classifying the genocide along with the internments, I think you over-sensationalize the latter while reducing the horrors of an actual atrocity to the level of comparative peccadilloes. Historically speaking, these were very different episodes.

To use the National-Socialist campaign of extermination as a proof-example for your plaidoyer on behalf of Muslims whom you feel are endangered by those who criticize the worldwide jihad is wrongheaded. Some would probably find it deeply offensive to the memory of the exterminated Jews.

5) Now what of the apparent anti-Muslim sentiment in America and, perhaps, Canada, about which you are worried? What evidence is there of any organized, governmental sanction against Muslims, citizens or non-citizens in our countries?

As reported by official agencies, the vast majority of religiously-motivated "hate crimes" in the United States and Canada over the past few years have been directed against Jews -- many committed by Muslims. The number of reported religiously-motivated anti-Muslim "hate crimes" in the US and Canada remains quite small, and has not increased very much despite the atrocious attacks of September Eleventh and repeated jihadist attacks and attempted attacks since then.

There has been no anti-Muslim "Kristallnacht" in the United States.

What of the example that started this discussion thread? When the Ohio prison system became concerned about complaints from a small number of Muslim inmates, it responded by deciding to eliminate pork from all prison menus altogether. Is that an example of an anti-Muslim cracking-down? Hardly.

In many States, Muslim women are allowed to be photographed for driver licenses with their heads covered -- a privilege accorded to no others. Is this an example of the sort of vicious discrimination that makes you think of the National-Socialist holocaust?

6) The most significant murderous religiously-motivated attacks against Muslims over the past decade have taken place in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan, where Shi'ite Muslim worshippers in Shi'ite Muslim mosques are repeatedly bombed and shot by Sunni Muslim jihadists. More than 1,000 Shi'ite and other minority Muslims (Ahmadis, Qadianis, and Barelvis) were killed in Pakistan in 2010 alone.

The most dangerous places for (Shi'ite) Muslims to live in the world today are not the secular Western democracies, but in Muslim countries. Muslim lives are not endangered by those in the West who have called attention to the explicit aims of jihadi terror, but by the jihadi terrorists about whom these Western voices are warning.

By all means, let us learn from the experience of the XXth century. Let us remember that an extremist group of fanatics, who when they first appear on the scene look to have no chance of success, may come in time to acquire political and military power sufficient to enable them to plunge the world into a war that will take tens of millions of lives. The jihadists explicitly promise to exterminate the Jews, kill or convert the Hindus, reduce Christians to the second-class status of dhimmi, and subjugate the entire World. They have already killed tens of thousands of Muslims, Christians, Hindus, and Jews in their efforts. Sticking your head in the sand and pretending that they don't mean what they say, or that they won't try to do what they swear is their most solemn religious obligation, will not make the problem go away.
magicfish
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Quote:
On 2011-10-08 11:28, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-10-08 11:20, magicfish wrote:
Of course they are winning. How on earth can we defeat someone we are afraid of offending?
Imagine if we were bound by political correctness in ww2?
We would have been labelled Germaniphobes and been forced to seek counselling for not sympathizing with their quest for world domination.


"They" are Americans.

No, "They" aren't.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2011-10-09 09:30, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-10-08 11:28, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-10-08 11:20, magicfish wrote:
Of course they are winning. How on earth can we defeat someone we are afraid of offending?
Imagine if we were bound by political correctness in ww2?
We would have been labelled Germaniphobes and been forced to seek counselling for not sympathizing with their quest for world domination.


"They" are Americans.

No, "They" aren't.


How do you come by this information. The two men launching the lawsuit are Cornelius Causey and Abdul Awkal. Why do you believe that they are not Americans?

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
balducci
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Quote:
On 2011-10-09 07:28, Woland wrote:

Japanese in Hawaii, where they comprised a significant part of the population, incidentally were not interned;

They most certainly were (though the numbers involved were small):

http://hawaii.gov/dlnr/reports-to-the-le......LH07.pdf

There were five known internment camps in Hawaii.

Quote:
On 2011-10-09 07:28, Woland wrote:

5) Now what of the apparent anti-Muslim sentiment in America ... In many States, Muslim women are allowed to be photographed for driver licenses with their heads covered -- a privilege accorded to no others.

Which States? If you are going to say Florida, that is untrue except in a very technically misleading sense. A couple were "allowed" to have such photos taken in ERROR, errors which were later corrected.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Woland
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I see, balducci, that you have focused on the most important parts of my comment.
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Quote:
On 2011-10-09 11:56, Woland wrote:

I see, balducci, that you have focused on the most important parts of my comment.

I see, Woland, that you ignored my question. Smile

Well, most of your earlier lengthy post was opinion. Which you attempted to support with a few "facts", several of which were not facts at all.

I addressed a couple of your "factual" points which were patently incorrect and fairly simple to demonstrate as such.

Would you rather I quibble over your opinions or choice of words rather than the facts? Okay. You said:

"I think the term "atrocity" when applied to the Canadian internment is a bit overboard."

You are free to your opinions, but many Ukrainians and others in Canada do view the Canadian internment as an atrocity.

You also said:

"To use the National-Socialist campaign of extermination as a proof-example for your plaidoyer on behalf of Muslims whom you feel are endangered by those who criticize the worldwide jihad is wrongheaded. Some would probably find it deeply offensive to the memory of the exterminated Jews."

Whereas the EXTERMINATED JEWS would (if they could) be enormously dismayed to see another group persecuted.

"Now what of the apparent anti-Muslim sentiment in America"

Besides many of the posts on this forum?
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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