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Pakar Ilusi
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Quote:
On 2011-10-09 07:28, Woland wrote:

They have already killed tens of thousands of Muslims, Christians, Hindus, and Jews in their efforts. Sticking your head in the sand and pretending that they don't mean what they say, or that they won't try to do what they swear is their most solemn religious obligation, will not make the problem go away.



That there is it.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
Magnus Eisengrim
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Woland (and Pakar) you are conflating two completely separate issues.

There are wicked people in this world doing wicked things. NOBODY DENIES THAT.

It is pure bigotry to blame all people of the same faith (or ethnicity or colour etc.) for these wicked acts.

In America (site of the issue of the OP) people have religious freedom. The actions of the Indonesian or Saudi or Yemeni governments are irrelevant to this case.

The main issue of the OP is whether Muslim prisoners should get Halal food. The lawsuit takes the position that since Jewish prisoners get Kosher food, the precedent is set and the cases are equivalent.

The secondary issue is that the Ohio prison system took the step of banning pork in prisons, which failed to address the issue.

The issue raised by several people in this thread is that the blame for Islamisist terrorism is somehow related to this lawsuit.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Woland
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Magnus, Neither I nor Pakar Ilusi are blaming all Muslims for the actions of the jihadis. I have never expressed one word of anti-Muslim sentiment or any criticism of Islam as a religion. However, if we are going to resist and control jihadi terror, we have to recognize it for what it is and understand it on its own terms.

balducci, the Muslims in America are NOT being persecuted. Decidedly unlike the National Socialist German government with respect to European Jews, the American government is not waging a propaganda campaign to demonize Muslims, is not organizing mobs to harass, beat, and murder Muslims, is not systematically destroying and/or expropriating Muslim property, and is not organizing a campaign to destroy Muslim mosques. To equate the systematic National Socialist persecution and genocide of the European Jews with the complete absence of anything like it in the United States is delusional.

I'm sorry I did not directly answer the question in your last post. I think your question was "Which States?" allow driver license photographs to accommodate the wishes of Muslimahs to maintain head coverings.

According to the Council of American-Islamic Relations, a self-described Muslim civil rights group (that has been identified as a non-indicted co-conspirator in several terror cases, and which is apparently the American organ of the Ikhwan, or Muslim Brotherhood):

Quote:
Most states, except Georgia, Kentucky and New Hampshire, have addressed religious
accommodation concerns in codes, policy manuals or administrative practices.

* Five states—Arkansas, Mississippi, Kansas, Missouri, and Maine—recognize only certain
religious practices.

* The other 42 states have adopted more inclusive approaches to religious accommodation
policies.

* Contrary to earlier news reports, the trend in favor of religious accommodation increased after 9/11. While three states—California and the Carolinas— scaled back some of their
religious exemptions, six states—Alabama, Maine, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, and West
Virginia—increased the exemptions.


Therefore, I think my original statement is correct. But thanks for allowing me to provide the documentation.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2011-10-09 15:10, Woland wrote:

I

According to the Council of American-Islamic Relations, a self-described Muslim civil rights group (that has been identified as a non-indicted co-conspirator in several terror cases, and which is apparently the American organ of the Ikhwan, or Muslim Brotherhood):

Quote:
Most states, except Georgia, Kentucky and New Hampshire, have addressed religious
accommodation concerns in codes, policy manuals or administrative practices.

* Five states—Arkansas, Mississippi, Kansas, Missouri, and Maine—recognize only certain
religious practices.

* The other 42 states have adopted more inclusive approaches to religious accommodation
policies.

* Contrary to earlier news reports, the trend in favor of religious accommodation increased after 9/11. While three states—California and the Carolinas— scaled back some of their
religious exemptions, six states—Alabama, Maine, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, and West
Virginia—increased the exemptions.


Therefore, I think my original statement is correct. But thanks for allowing me to provide the documentation.


This is important. The issue in the lawsuit is about religious rights for prisoners and bureaucratic bungling. It has nothing to do (IMO) with "jihadi terrorists".

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
balducci
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Quote:
On 2011-10-09 15:10, Woland wrote:

I'm sorry I did not directly answer the question in your last post. I think your question was "Which States?" allow driver license photographs to accommodate the wishes of Muslimahs to maintain head coverings.

According to the Council of American-Islamic Relations, a self-described Muslim civil rights group (that has been identified as a non-indicted co-conspirator in several terror cases, and which is apparently the American organ of the Ikhwan, or Muslim Brotherhood):

Quote:
Most states, except Georgia, Kentucky and New Hampshire, have addressed religious
accommodation concerns in codes, policy manuals or administrative practices.

* Five states—Arkansas, Mississippi, Kansas, Missouri, and Maine—recognize only certain
religious practices.

* The other 42 states have adopted more inclusive approaches to religious accommodation
policies.

* Contrary to earlier news reports, the trend in favor of religious accommodation increased after 9/11. While three states—California and the Carolinas— scaled back some of their
religious exemptions, six states—Alabama, Maine, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, and West
Virginia—increased the exemptions.


Therefore, I think my original statement is correct.

Well, not really. All manner of faiths are accommodated. Your statement was:

"Muslim women are allowed to be photographed for driver licenses with their heads covered -- A PRIVILEGE ACCORDED TO NO OTHERS."

In at least some states, other faiths ARE allowed head coverings in their photos. Jewish men wear yarmulkes; Sikh men wear turbans. Jewish and Christian women may wear religiously-prescribed head coverings.

Mennonites in some places can obtain drivers licenses without a photo entirely.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17725931/ns/......3lHKZSh0
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Woland
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Au contraire, Magnus. The reason the bureaucrats "bungled" this issue is because of the fear of jihadi terrorism.
gdw
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Quote:
On 2011-10-09 15:37, Woland wrote:
Au contraire, Magnus. The reason the bureaucrats "bungled" this issue is because of the fear of jihadi terrorism.


The reason the bureaucrats bungled the issue is because they are bureaucrats.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2011-10-09 15:37, Woland wrote:
Au contraire, Magnus. The reason the bureaucrats "bungled" this issue is because of the fear of jihadi terrorism.


On what information do you base this?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
acesover
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They would not let me wear my "Lone Ranger Mask".
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
Woland
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It's a question of degree, balducci, and how much is covered. However, even if I stipulate that the Muslimahs are accorded no specific privilege that is not available under any circumstances to members of the other groups you mention, that still doesn't demonstrate that Muslims are in any way persecuted by the State bureaus of motor vehicles. It shows au contraire that Muslimahs benefit equally.

Magnus, if you can show me another example of where a State prison system completely revamped its procedures (e.g. adopted a menu change across the board) to cater to one small group of prisoners, I will withdraw my supposition.
Jonathan Townsend
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A temper test for religiousity?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
balducci
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Quote:
On 2011-10-09 18:30, Woland wrote:

Magnus, if you can show me another example of where a State prison system completely revamped its procedures (e.g. adopted a menu change across the board) to cater to one small group of prisoners, I will withdraw my supposition.

But that's not what happened in this case, either. The menu was revamped and pork was originally taken off the menu in 2009 as a cost-savings measure. NOT because of religion. They added it back for one year, then decided it was easier and better to go back to the non-pork menu they had rather than get involved with "excessive entanglement of government with religion" (borrowing this quote from below).

However, in any case, you can find prison systems in the U.S. that force “non-red-meat meals” on Fridays during Lent and the Catholic holiday of Ash Wednesday on prisoners, apparently in order to accommodate Catholic Religious Dietary Ritual. Unless you really think it is just a coincidence that those special days are the meatless ones. Note also:

http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/dis......39/0.pdf

"[The prison’s] actions had the secular purpose of feeding the inmates. The services of these meals did not have the primary effect of advancing Catholicism or inhibiting other religions, nor did it foster the excessive entanglement of government with religion. The eating of a vegetarian repast is not inherently linked to a religious practice. Vegetarian meals are regularly eaten by many different people on an everyday basis, regardless of their religion."
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Woland
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You may be right. Let's hope so.
acesover
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Quote:
On 2011-10-07 12:19, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
GlenD: OK. What about communion? Christian prisoners can have communion in prison. Does that bother you?

Woland: The request from the prisoners was for Hallal food, not for a pork ban, as already discussed. Someone within the system opted for a pork ban, which satisfied no one.

John


So you suggest we give them a menu and have them pick what they want? Let see I will have the prime rib with a side of apple sauce, and make that a rare cut. Remember no pork. I think each prisoner should have his own chef. Remember he is a great asset to the community.

Did you forget he is in prison for committing a crime aganist society?

Communion in prison...what has that got to do with changing the meal program for the whole prison population?

Tell you what if they are on death row give them the choice of the needle or eating prison food (pork in this instance) and see what they decide. That way they can meet their maker and say, see I ate no pork, reward me.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2011-10-10 10:05, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-10-07 12:19, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
GlenD: OK. What about communion? Christian prisoners can have communion in prison. Does that bother you?

Woland: The request from the prisoners was for Hallal food, not for a pork ban, as already discussed. Someone within the system opted for a pork ban, which satisfied no one.

John


Quote:
So you suggest we give them a menu and have them pick what they want?


Let see I will have the prime rib with a side of apple sauce, and make that a rare cut. Remember no pork. I think each prisoner should have his own chef. Remember he is a great asset to the community.


Do you really think that that is what I said? Why not try responding to what I say honestly?

Quote:
Did you forget he is in prison for committing a crime aganist society?


nope.

Quote:
Communion in prison...what has that got to do with changing the meal program for the whole prison population?


Read carefully. I have argued the opposite. I do not think that religious requirements should result in a meal program for the entire population. Just the opposite; I think that prisons should make reasonable attempts to accommodate the religious needs of the prison population. This might include dietary restrictions for Jews and Muslims, access to Elders for Natives, prayer time, and the like.

Quote:
Tell you what if they are on death row give them the choice of the needle or eating prison food (pork in this instance) and see what they decide. That way they can meet their maker and say, see I ate no pork, reward me.


If this is your notion of justice, there is little else to discuss.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
gdw
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I do find it interesting the fuss made over accommodating privileges, after inhibiting rights.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
critter
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Eeeehhhh... nevermind.
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gdw
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...
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
critter
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"."
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
acesover
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In respnse to your post answering my proposition for needle or meal.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tell you what if they are on death row give them the choice of the needle or eating prison food (pork in this instance) and see what they decide. That way they can meet their maker and say, see I ate no pork, reward me.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



If this is your notion of justice, there is little else to discuss.

John


Is this my notion of justice? Don't make me laugh. If they are on death row and have been convicted and sentenced to death by a jury of their peers, do you really have to ask me what my notion of justice is?. Because that is what I said, "if they are on death row".

You are usualy not on death row for jay walking or shopifting. These are murderers and rapists and paid for hire killers. They kill for money, and their own satisfaction and a better lifestsyle and they do it without remorse. Of course they get religion after being in prison. However if not caught and imprisoned they do not get religion and their diets take a back seat.

Remember they are in prison. I believe they forfeit a few of their rights when that occurs, and choice of diet may well be one of them. On the days sereved pork related products let them fast and offer it up as a sacrifice. I will make them morally stronger.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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