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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » The Authentic Indian Cups and Balls (5 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Gary Kosnitzky
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I have made Cheppum Panthum my life's work. 
For the last 8 years I have lived and breathed it. 
There are many moves and many routines, I know them all. 
The sad truth is that it is dying. You can count on one hand how many can proficiently perform it. 
Here is a short routine I learned. Very few eyes have seen this very old version. 
It is spoken in an ancient Hindu language, not used anymore. 

Indha Cheppu Kali means- this cup is empty. 
Pandu means – ball. 
Timi Taka Taa are magic words like hocus pocus or abracadabra. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t88TicT-6U 

I hope you enjoy it.
Rediscover a lost art.

www.jadoosmagic.com
Wizard of Oz
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Elegant, graceful, and most of all, magical. Thank you.
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
Gary Kosnitzky
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Thank you Wizard of Oz.
Rediscover a lost art.

www.jadoosmagic.com
Bill Palmer
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Gary's work on Cheppum Panthum has completely validated my hypothesis that the Egyptians did not originate the cups and balls.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Pete Biro
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1933 - 2018
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Well done
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
Ray Haining
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Nice. I like the motion of the wand, sliding it, when replacing it on the floor behind the cups.

Slightly off topic, isn't the theory that the cups and balls originated with the Egyptians based on that picture of two people doing what appears to be a cups and balls routine, but is really a picture of two people preparing bread? Maybe it was you, Bill, who punctured that myth?

What ancient Hindu language is that? How far back does it go?
Bill Palmer
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Although I would like to lay claim to puncturing that myth, there were others before me who picked up on the same inconsistencies that I did.

One that was obvious to me was the complete lack of any kind of pebble, ball or other similar item in the painting. Egyptian art is very specific.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Donnie Buckley
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Ray, That glyph in the tomb at Beni Hasan is probably not two people baking bread either. It is in a section of glyphs that depict culinary procedures, but it is most likely two people stacking dung cakes for cooking fuel.
I've also heard it suggested that it is a depiction of two people making sugar loaves. But sugar loaves aren't shaped like that - they are conical so the sugar can be broken off, wouldn't be stacked, and there is no evidence that sugar loaves were made by ancient Egyptians (according to Wikipedia the earliest record of a sugar loaf comes from the 9th century). The dung cake however is shaped like that, is stacked en masse, exists WAY BACK in history, and was an essential part of the ancient kitchen.
One thing is for certain: it's not an image of Cups and Balls.
IMO, the trick originated in the Indus Valley (India) at least 5000 years ago (and probably longer, since archeologists have only recently started to date civilization in that region to OLDER than previously assumed.)
You know, those Indian magicians actually guard their secrets and only teach them to their male children, so westerners (Romans) who witnessed this trick thousand of years ago, would have had to make up their own techniques. Therefore, I believe western cups and balls techniques are a derivative of the Indian techniques.
Learn the form, but seek the formless. Learn it all, then forget it all. Learn the way, then find your own way. Rings-N-Things
Lawrence O
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Donnie,
Since I was the one that suggested the sugar loaves as a possibility, your point on their shape isn't totally convincing but your point on sugar loaves having started in the 9th century is. So I'm getting into some search to support (or argue with) your cooking fuel hypothesis.
Now the relationship between the oriental and occidental worlds date from the wars between Persia and the Greeks and then, later, Alexander the Great's invasion of Persia. Persia had made an empire that was encompassing India and had a very original administrative decentralized system which, in history, would only be matched by the the Ottoman Empire. Thus it's reasonable to expect that the Cups and Balls, if they were initiated in India (an acceptable hypothesis but not much more... it could as well be Persia), it wouldn't have reach our barbarian coasts through the Romans but through the Greeks
Remember Alciphron...
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
Donnie Buckley
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Lawrence,
I liked your Sugar Loaves Theory a lot, even with the improper shape and stacking depicted in the glyph, until I discovered that ancient Egyptians didn't refine sugar. It was Gary who showed me that the glyph in the tomb of Beni Hasan was most likely a depiction of dung cakes being made. If true, it's hilarious that magicians have laid claim to this image.
And you are correct that the westerners that would have come in contact with the Indian magicians were pre-Romans.

On the subject of Indian magicians, I urge you to read "Net of Magic, Wonders and Deceptions in India", by Lee Siegel. Lee Siegel is a professor of religion at the University of Hawaii. His first hand experience with what we would call a "caste" of magicians in Shadipur India is enlightening. You come away from the book with a sense of having glimpsed into the rich history of the Indian magician - because so much of what they do has not been changed by time.
Learn the form, but seek the formless. Learn it all, then forget it all. Learn the way, then find your own way. Rings-N-Things
Lawrence O
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Thks, Donnie. This is (yet) another book that had escaped my scrutiny...
We're all ignorant, just not of the same thing.
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
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