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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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On 2011-10-22 14:54, Dannydoyle wrote: Of course they are. I guess I'm vain enough to think that you actually read my posts, but fairly recently I wrote that I thought that many of the Tea Partiers had legitimate grievances. Maybe you missed it. I didn't particularly agree with their solutions, but the fact is that 99% of the people including Tea Partiers are being ripped off by the 1%. Most of the discontent in both groups comes from this one basic fact. The difference is that the Tea Partiers think that the 1% has the solution as to how to fight the 1%. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
And . . . you may have noticed the title of this thread and the OP?
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts |
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On 2011-10-23 00:13, landmark wrote: You're giving some forum readers way too much credit.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts |
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On 2011-10-22 18:13, Dannydoyle wrote: What excuses are being made? You keep talking about this, but you never give any facts. Just innuendo. Frankly, I'm enormously amused that you keep ripping on several of the most successful capitalists (e.g., Soros, Buffet) in history.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Lets make sense here. How much tax does the top 1% pay? Anyone want to talk about that? How about the top 10%? How much of the tax burdon do they shoulder? And finally how much tax does the bottom 50% of the economic stratosphere pay?
Now you want people to pay even more? Sure they have more money. But they pay more taxes and use proportionally less of the benifits derived from those taxes. So where is all the vaunted liberal 'fairness' to this situation? By the way I know to you there is no difference in a profiteer and a capitalst, but it is the difference in a pirate and a sailor.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-10-23 10:04, Dannydoyle wrote: I do not claim to have the answers about how much different people should pay. I'm just interested in honest debate and discussion. As one of the articles linked below notes, the top 1% earn something like 22% of the nation’s income and pay 38% of the nation’s federal income taxes. However, if you look at the tax system overall (including income taxes, federal gas taxes, payroll taxes, state sales taxes, etc.) the picture changes drastically: "[T]he top 1 percent of earners account for 20.3 percent of total personal income in the United States and pay 21.5 percent of all federal and state taxes. The middle 20 percent of households earn 11.6 percent of US income and pay 10.3 percent of taxes. The lowest 20 percent account for just 3.5 percent of income, and pay 2 percent of all taxes." See: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/0415/T......-pay-now So what is the big outrage? The overall tax system is already reasonably flat. If you flatten out the federal tax rates more than they are now, the numbers show that the overall tax burden will fall disproportionately on those with lower incomes. If you check this link, you'll see that the overall tax burden on the wealthiest of the wealthy (e.g., people like Buffet and Gates) has been steadily falling for the last 2 decades or so: http://www.quickanded.com/2010/02/effect......ans.html Also quite interesting is this article: http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2011/04/18/t......o-taxes/ "Opponents of taxes and government, in describing the excessive tax burdens of the wealthy, often cite IRS figures showing that the top 1% earn 22% of the nation’s income and pay 38% of the nation’s federal income taxes, while 47% of Americans pay no federal income taxes. Yet there are plenty of high earners who also pay no taxes. They are called “HINTs” — High-earners, no taxes. They are the personal-income versions of General Electric, and their numbers are rising rapidly. According to an article by Tom Herman in The Fiscal Times, more than 10,000 Americans who earned more than $200,000 in 2007 paid no income taxes to the U.S. government." So, in summary: The _overall_ tax burden is already more or less flat. The burden on the very richest has been steadily declining. Many of the very richest are paying less taxes than the poorest (proportionately (?) speaking). Many of the very richest themselves are the ones who are drawing attention to this state of affairs.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Danny wrote:
Quote:
But they [the wealthy] pay more taxes and use proportionally less of the benifits derived from those taxes. Strongly disagree with that. The govt military adventures are used mainly to benefit the wealthy and private overseas investors and "defense" contractors; public scientific and medical research is privatized by the wealthy corporations; pollution clean-up is largely due to the waste and garbage of the wealthy corporations and subsidies are offered for the larger polluting vehicles; national roadways are subsidized transport systems for wealthy corporations; subsidies to arts and cultural institutions are heavily biased in favor of those that are run by and for the wealthy; and if you think the police spend as much time to recover a stolen iPod as a stolen Picasso, well, then your police department is a lot different from mine.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Medicare and medicade. The "rich" do not participate nearly as much as those who are not. I know you hate the military, but that is not the point now is it?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Yea you are interested in honest debate that is a laugh balducci. Seriously.
http://wmbriggs.com/blog/?p=3652 I am sure this is 100% wrong but it is fun to look at if you really want honest debate.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts |
Danny, if you look at the source of the data that appears in the figure at that link you gave you'll see that the data is from the mid-2000s (so out of date compared to what I gave you). Also, it omits some of the tax burden. And as Briggs himself admits, it contains errors, is easy to manipulate, and its quality can be questioned. So while it is a nice figure, it simply doesn't negate the point I drew to your attention before: "[T]he top 1 percent of earners account for 20.3 percent of total personal income in the United States and pay 21.5 percent of all federal and state taxes. The middle 20 percent of households earn 11.6 percent of US income and pay 10.3 percent of taxes. The lowest 20 percent account for just 3.5 percent of income, and pay 2 percent of all taxes." Overall, considering all taxes, it appears that the system is reasonably fair.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
The reason I posted it was not for the date, but rather to show just how easy it is to manipulate figures. Which is exactly what you are trying to do. Thank you for noticing.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
How, exactly is Balducci manipulating figures, Danny? Is this an empty accusation, or can you us what manipulation Balducci is committing?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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On 2011-10-23 15:04, Dannydoyle wrote: Boring, Danny. Last I looked military spending was a huge part of the budget. You even claimed to be against some of that spending. Guess that makes you a brother hater. Welcome! The point is that that spending aids the wealthy much more than the poor. The rich are all eligible and can receive Medicare benefits. Medicaid is not a federal program. Have to answer the door now--cops are asking me about that missing Picasso.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
So tell me, landmark, where did Greece and Belgium do all the military spending that bankrupted them?
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
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On 2011-10-23 16:37, Magnus Eisengrim wrote: The links he is quoting manipulate figures John.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
How so?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-10-23 17:38, Woland wrote: The claim we are discussing in this part of the thread is "Who does government spending benefit most?" But just for kicks, evidently the Greek government itself thinks that the military budget is a problem: From the Stratfor Global Intelligence website: Quote: Greece and Turkey held a minisummit in Athens on May 14, during which Greece proposed a mutual cut in defense spending of 25 percent. Reining in defense spending is of great interest to Athens in the wake of the financial crisis that has strongly buffeted Greece of late, but this dilemma does not lend itself to any obvious solution.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
What a laugh, landmark. And is Rhode Island broke because of its military adventures? What about Portugal? Spain? It isn't the military expenditures that have crushed these economies, it is the socialism, and the skyrocketing public employee pensions. The current administration has "stimulated" more money in two years than the entire estimated cost of the Iraq war -- which now does look like a total waste, since the current administration is delivering Iraq, nicely gift-wrapped, to Khamenei and Ahmadinejad. (Just as the same party delivered a Vietnamized Viet Nam to America's enemies in 1975.)
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
Here's why Illinois is going broke, anyway:
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SPRINGFIELD —— I. Have. No. Words. And all the militant teachers who walked picket lines and paid dues to the union are being suckered by these scoundrels. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-10-23 22:20, Woland wrote: Yes the money was a total waste (but that's all right since military spending according to you has nothing to do with our financial problems). How many billion or trillion did we spend on that little adventure? Your partisan slip is showing, however. Obama was merely carrying out the deal that Bush worked out. I looked in vain for your posts about Bush delivering Iraq to Iran. But you're forgiven since you weren't a member here before 2008. Perhaps you missed the news: Obama tried hard to re-neg on Bush's deal and tried to stay longer than Bush had negotiated, but the Iraqis decided they couldn't live with having foreign troops on their soil, troops who demanded immunity for all crimes. The nerve of those ungrateful Iraqis! http://www.salon.com/2011/10/23/wikileak......ngleton/
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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