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tommy
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What else would you expect from a leader who's fathers last request was to be buried under gaze of Karl Marx in Highgate Cemetery in London?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zgGfBJ2UEI
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Woland
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Thanks, tommy.

Magnus, I don't confuse you with any of the miscreants responsible for this reprehensible report.

A couple of points:

1) If a man - or a woman - buys a house, and pays for it, it is no business of anybody else's how many rooms it has or how it is used. "A man's home is his castle." This is the essence and the heart of private property, and without respect for private property you will have only poverty and oppression.

2) I find it interesting that many liberals - and this is NOT directed at you, Magnus - think that all sorts of behavior can and should be controlled through taxation. You want to discourage drinking soda pop? Tax it. You want to discourage people from smoking cigarettes? Tax them. But somehow raising the tax rates on small businesses will not discourage investment . . . .

3) The proper purpose of taxation is not behavior modification, but raising money for the legitimate functions of government.

Thanks for letting me share.
thorndyke
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Who has the right to decide if some old farts have too much and should be forced out of what they not only own, but spent a generation earning be effort. Oh this group just pushed my button and I hope they rot in very tiny shipping containers surrounded by open tins of cat food that are starting to stink as bad as their idea to screw people out of what is rightfully theirs.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2011-10-20 18:47, Woland wrote:


3) The proper purpose of taxation is not behavior modification, but raising money for the legitimate functions of government.

Thanks for letting me share.


So you oppose capital gains exemptions? Deductions for charitable donations?

Just wondering. Because those are definitely two ways that taxes are used to promote certain behaviors and neither raises money for the legitimate functions of government.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
rockwall
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Quote:
On 2011-10-20 16:03, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
What does "the socialist system(s)" have to do with this?

Governments always used financial incentives/disincentives to change behaviour. Tolls, consumption taxes, pollution taxes, tax deductions for charitable contributions, airport levies, capital gains deductions, etc. etc. etc.

Please don't read this as support for the report or its recommendations, BTW.

John


John, you don't say that you think Governments 'should' use taxation to control behavior but your post appears to give tacit approval of the practice. If I've misread your intent, I would be happy to be corrected.
rockwall
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I think we posted at the same time. nm
landmark
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I find this discussion hilarious, as if this very thing were not happening in the US every single day. People are doubling up in relatives' and friends' homes, apartments, and couches as they lose their houses, lose their jobs, get cuts in wages and eye the coming cuts in Social Security and Medicare. If you haven't noticed, capitalism is in the worst crisis it's been in for eighty years. You don't need to refer to Dr. Zhivago--open your eyes to what's happening with your neighbors who have to live with your austerity budgets, banker bailouts, worker layoffs and redistribution schemes to the wealthy.

Where in the world do you live?
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2011-10-20 21:29, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-10-20 16:03, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
What does "the socialist system(s)" have to do with this?

Governments always used financial incentives/disincentives to change behaviour. Tolls, consumption taxes, pollution taxes, tax deductions for charitable contributions, airport levies, capital gains deductions, etc. etc. etc.

Please don't read this as support for the report or its recommendations, BTW.

John


John, you don't say that you think Governments 'should' use taxation to control behavior but your post appears to give tacit approval of the practice. If I've misread your intent, I would be happy to be corrected.


I don't see anything wrong with the practice. That being said, there are always questions of legitimacy. Should the government encourage investment? If so, capital gains exemptions are one way to do it. Should the government discourage reckless driving? If so, fines are one way to do that. Should the government try to curb the pollutants put into our water?

But I would never say that economic (dis)incentives are ALWAYS ethically justified, and I am certainly not qualified to weigh their efficacy relative to other measures.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2011-10-20 22:07, landmark wrote:
I find this discussion hilarious, as if this very thing were not happening in the US every single day. People are doubling up in relatives' and friends' homes, apartments, and couches as they lose their houses, lose their jobs, get cuts in wages and eye the coming cuts in Social Security and Medicare. If you haven't noticed, capitalism is in the worst crisis it's been in for eighty years. You don't need to refer to Dr. Zhivago--open your eyes to what's happening with your neighbors who have to live with your austerity budgets, banker bailouts, worker layoffs and redistribution schemes to the wealthy.

Where in the world do you live?


People losing their houses and/or "doubling up" is a far cry from the government deliberately targeting a specific demographic.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Woland
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. . . . and expropriating their homes for "the common good" . . . .
Magnus Eisengrim
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Ahem. Read the real report. There is no talk of expropriation. It's a taxation scheme.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
rockwall
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John, isn't it a taxation scheme who's stated goal is to expropriate their homes?
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Quote:
On 2011-10-20 23:38, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Ahem. Read the real report. There is no talk of expropriation. It's a taxation scheme.


Do you think it's appropriate to tax people at different rates based on their age? How about on race or gender?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Woland
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Magnus, the threat of expropriation is real. The basic idea is to force people to do what the left wants them to do. That is coercion. Taxation is just the first step. If that doesn't work, the left will progressively ratchet up the coercive measures until the elderly homeowners do what they want them to do. The experience of the XXth century shows again and again and again where leftist coercion leads. Far better to stop it before millions of people are sent to work camps, death camps, starved to death, or taken into the forest and shot.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2011-10-20 23:53, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-10-20 23:38, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Ahem. Read the real report. There is no talk of expropriation. It's a taxation scheme.


Do you think it's appropriate to tax people at different rates based on their age? How about on race or gender?


No.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2011-10-21 09:09, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-10-20 23:53, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-10-20 23:38, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Ahem. Read the real report. There is no talk of expropriation. It's a taxation scheme.


Do you think it's appropriate to tax people at different rates based on their age? How about on race or gender?


No.


On second thought, we give senior citizens a very large tax exemption based on their age, and I've never thought that that was a bad thing. Children amount to large write-offs for their parents. My province used to give free bus passes to seniors (and I think it's a shame that they don't). Hmm. I'll have to think this over.

I can't think of any tax schemes based on race or gender that I would support. But if anybody has one, I'd like to hear about it.

Dang it, the world is failing to fall into neat categorical order for me again. Geez.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On 2011-10-21 09:12, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:

On second thought, we give senior citizens a very large tax exemption based on their age, and I've never thought that that was a bad thing.

John


Shouldn't income be more relevant than age alone? How old is Warren Buffett these days?
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2011-10-21 09:40, stoneunhinged wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-10-21 09:12, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:

On second thought, we give senior citizens a very large tax exemption based on their age, and I've never thought that that was a bad thing.

John


Shouldn't income be more relevant than age alone? How old is Warren Buffett these days?


There are lots of relevant criteria for taxation levels (unless you are an ardent flat-taxer). I was just correcting myself because I apparently don't think that age is necessarily tax-irrelevant.

I still have very little to say about the actual proposal, mostly because I have no clue how acute the housing stituation is in Great Britain, and I don't know how big a deal unused space is, and I don't know if the mechanism proposed will achieve what it aims to do.

But I am pretty certain that the Daily Mail misrepresented the report (quelle surprise!) and that some of that misreprestation spilled over into our discussion.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
rockwall
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Quote:
On 2011-10-21 10:58, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:

...
But I am pretty certain that the Daily Mail misrepresented the report (quelle surprise!) and that some of that misreprestation spilled over into our discussion.

John


I misrepresent that!!!
Woland
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Does it matter how "severe" the housing shortage is? Why would a more "severe" shortage make it acceptable to force some people out of their homes so that you can assign them to other people?
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