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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » More upstanding officers at work (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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magicalaurie
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http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/News/Local_New......61260749

Once again, citing aggression, and concern for public safety "forcing" them to shoot and kill. I've worked with many cattle. This was a young animal, and clearly not exhibiting aggression in the slightest. It would have been quite a simple matter to get behind this animal and make it hop the fence to get it off the road. I'm not exaggerating. Mind bogglingly simple procedure.

Using the public as an excuse for your actions is getting a might old. This is not the way to do it, boys. Put the bullets away, already.

Laurie
balducci
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http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/sto......ows.html

"Police said it was impossible to contain the animals and, with the permission of the owner of the cattle, they shot and killed one of them the intersection of Chemin de la Rive and Chemin du Quai, about 30 kilometres east of downtown Gatineau."

"Gatineau police said they tried several times to get the animals into the trailer and were unable to because of their aggressiveness"
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Payne
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Yummmm. . . Veal
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magicalaurie
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It would be tough to get them to walk straight into a trailer from the open road, I agree. I wouldn't expect a knowledgeable handler to even attempt to do so. But the behaviour they're citing is normal avoidance. Using the term aggression is misleading, and meant to be, I believe. I'm a little surprised the owner consented to this treatment, but not entirely. Many place little value on their livestock and would go along. Especially with police accusing them of endangering the public. "Impossible", and "forced" are extreme terms here, in my opinion.



"The animals were bound for an abattoir when they escaped Thursday afternoon from a trailer."

"Residents near Chemin de la Rive and Chemin du Quai told CBC News they were shocked to see police officers draw their weapons and open fire near houses."
tommy
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They probably mistook it for a member of the public.
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MagicSanta
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I live in an area where cows and horses are on the highway all the time and never have heard of anyone needing to shoot one or even getting aggrivated by them.
landmark
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Quote:
On 2011-10-27 19:32, tommy wrote:
They probably mistook it for a member of the public.

I laughed out loud at that one tommy.
critter
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Quote:
On 2011-10-27 19:51, MagicSanta wrote:
I live in an area where cows and horses are on the highway all the time and never have heard of anyone needing to shoot one or even getting aggrivated by them.


We had open range grazing in Salmon too. There were some huge bulls just strolling around and there were never any issues from it.
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HerbLarry
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My experience with cattle, which is extensive, tells me that Laurie makes good points.
You know why don't act naive.
The Scary Librarian
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I agree, Laurie makes good points. Smile

This situation could have been handled in a much better way if it had been dealt with people who knew how to handle cows/bulls.
Salguod Nairb
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Where were the chickens in choppers?
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critter
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Here is a chicken on a chopper:
Image
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Salguod Nairb
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As I mentioned originally, I have handled many cattle. I know for a fact, I could easily have put that one over the fence by myself.


Them be strong words.

Personally I would of used a cattleput.
We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness...
magicalaurie
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It's true, Brian. I've moved a lot of cattle just walking along behind them. With experience you learn you can move them quite easily forward or back, let them turn, or stop them.

Any 4H kids from that school would have told them the same.

Laurie
Salguod Nairb
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I just dislike absolutes in general. Unless you were there and if that particular cattle wasn't a product of constant inbreeding, and the environment and surface area were typical, and about a hundred other unknown variables it is hard to be sure in retrospect. I will concede that you would have done a more thorough attempt than the existing participants.
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magicalaurie
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balducci
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On 2011-10-30 22:33, magicalaurie wrote:
I would have put them over the fence, Brian.

http://www.grandin.com/B.Williams.html

Cattle that have just escaped from a truck on a busy road are probably not in an optimal situation or mood for being moved / herded.

I couldn't help but notice that the article at the link you posted indicates in several places that it can be difficult to move cattle in non-optimal situations:

"If the cattle start running, these methods will not work."

"This method only works on animals that are slightly anxious and not fearful to the point of flight and running to get away."

"If the animals become excited in your first attempt and start running, they must be allowed to calm down for at least 30 minutes before the next attempt is made."

"These methods work best on cattle with a fairly large flight zone. We attempted to use these methods on a large group of tame feedlot cattle with no success."

"It is very difficult to elicit predatory avoidance behavior in tame cattle with extensive contact with people."

"The herding principles described in this paper works best on large extensive ranches or in large pens of feedlot cattle that are not accustomed to handling."

It seems to me that several of the non-optimal situations described above were in play in the event in question.
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Dannydoyle
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Judging officers in a situation they may not be familiar with is not a good policy in general.
Danny Doyle
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magicalaurie
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Read the next one, balducci.

These animals were not resistant to proper handling. Watch the video, you'll see how the flight zone was (mis)handled.

If these officers have jurisdiction in a rural area and are going to take these calls, they should be trained/qualified to handle livestock, or set up a road block, detour, and delegate the job to those who can manage it properly.
magicalaurie
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Quote:
On 2011-10-30 22:59, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-10-30 22:33, magicalaurie wrote:
I would have put them over the fence, Brian.

http://www.grandin.com/B.Williams.html

Cattle that have just escaped from a truck on a busy road are probably not in an optimal situation or mood for being moved / herded.

I couldn't help but notice that the article at the link you posted indicates in several places that it can be difficult to move cattle in non-optimal situations:

"If the cattle start running, these methods will not work."

"This method only works on animals that are slightly anxious and not fearful to the point of flight and running to get away."

"If the animals become excited in your first attempt and start running, they must be allowed to calm down for at least 30 minutes before the next attempt is made."

"These methods work best on cattle with a fairly large flight zone. We attempted to use these methods on a large group of tame feedlot cattle with no success."

"It is very difficult to elicit predatory avoidance behavior in tame cattle with extensive contact with people."

"The herding principles described in this paper works best on large extensive ranches or in large pens of feedlot cattle that are not accustomed to handling."

It seems to me that several of the non-optimal situations described above were in play in the event in question.


The road wasn't busy, except for the shuffling police cars, wailing sirens, flashing lights, and guys with guns running around.

If the animals get to the point where they're starting to run, you're pushing them too hard- you won't be able to direct him from a run- back off and slow down.

If the animal is tame, you put a rope on him and lead him away.

These animals are quite manageable, even in non-optimal conditions, if the handler stays calm and quiet.

These guys had plenty of time to get this handled properly- they were chasing these cattle for over an hour. Still, the animal was calm. If someone who understood how to move them properly would have gotten behind them, they would have moved well for them. The handling was the problem here, not the animals. The animal in the video was calm, it's directional behaviour normal. The police acted as predators, confused ones at that. The animals simply needed a knowledgeable handler, not hard to come by in these parts, and that's why people are so offended by the actions taken by the police here.

"When moving livestock from a large open area, understanding flight zone behavior and utilizing a few basic principles, moving animals in a calm and orderly fashion at a walk becomes very easy."
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