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landmark
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This wonderful kidney?

Today's NY Daily News had a reader poll that asked the following: "Do you think people should be allowed to sell their own bodily organs for a profit for transplant purposes?"

Curious to hear what you think.

If there's enough interest, I'll post the results of the NY responders later.

For the record, I say no.
gdw
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Why do so many people automatically only see theoretical downsides with this question? There's clearly a shortage in this area, and plenty of bureaucracy getting in the way.
Many people choose to donate their organs charitably, whats wrong with compensating them a bit? Also, how many die waiting for organs?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
MagicSanta
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You should have been present at my argument the other day with a person who said they might need a transplant and wanted to know how to get higher on the list yet this person did not sign on to be a doner on his license. I think people should have to request to not be a doner.
Tom Jorgenson
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There are too many downsides to this once you throw a few thousand greedy sleazeballs into the mix. How many beaten-down women will be talked into giving up a kidney, an eye or a lung so the boyfriend can make the rent or buy another pickup truck? And how many will say yes just to keep the vulture with her?

Judging the future by the past, this is not a good idea.

Compensating the families or estates of the dead for pieces and parts should be mandated. How come ONLY the donor does a donation? Everybody else down the line gets big money for messing with body parts, down to the plastic surgeons slapping new skin on the rumps and faces of the rich. Everybody is getting loot for that skin, that organ...except the donor. At the very least, any donation of any organ should get the funeral paid for.

However, once legal payment becomes the norm, there won't be a two-eyed slum kid in the world.
We dance an invisible dance to music they cannot hear.
Patrick Differ
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Why not harvest them?
Will you walk into my parlour? said the Spider to the Fly,
Tis the prettiest little parlour that ever you did spy;
The way into my parlour is up a winding stair,
And I've a many curious things to show when you are there.

Oh no, no, said the little Fly, to ask me is in vain,
For who goes up your winding stair
-can ne'er come down again.
tommy
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The selling of such ought to be outlawed altogether and you only need to look at what's going on in China to see why.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Jonathan Townsend
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Do you feel like a puppet if you can't see who's pulling the strings... even when you can see the strings?

Right, that responsibility thing again. I just voted for the guy who pushed the button. It's not like I pushed the button myself.

So... it takes a village to harvest a kidney. Killarious?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
gdw
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Quote:
On 2011-10-29 18:44, Tom Jorgenson wrote:
There are too many downsides to this once you throw a few thousand greedy sleazeballs into the mix. How many beaten-down women will be talked into giving up a kidney, an eye or a lung so the boyfriend can make the rent or buy another pickup truck? And how many will say yes just to keep the vulture with her?

Judging the future by the past, this is not a good idea.

Compensating the families or estates of the dead for pieces and parts should be mandated. How come ONLY the donor does a donation? Everybody else down the line gets big money for messing with body parts, down to the plastic surgeons slapping new skin on the rumps and faces of the rich. Everybody is getting loot for that skin, that organ...except the donor. At the very least, any donation of any organ should get the funeral paid for.

However, once legal payment becomes the norm, there won't be a two-eyed slum kid in the world.


Tom, I think you've got it completely backwards. LEGALIZED payment would be a prevention of this type of thing. Not that there is a huge american black market in organ donation right now, but we need only look to a more prominent black market trade to see that it is when it is illegal that it becomes more dangerous and creates the exact type of scenario you are describing. Prostitution. In the black market is where you find women forced into it by their boyfriends/pimps.
If there were a legal market for organs, then you would have legitimate businesses doing the surgeries, and do you really think your local hospital is going to be turning a blind eye when a girl with black eyes, and observable internal indicators of abuse comes in to sell her organs? No, it's the back ally "clinics" that are going to take what ever walks in their door.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Tom Cutts
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Wow, so out of touch in so many ways. Thanks for dropping the robes and showing your absolute cluelessness.
RS1963
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Tom remember who you are trying to speak to. He wrote the book "Being Clueless For Dummies"
gdw
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Tom, after you ready post, assuming you actually read it, then that's probably the most informed post to pass through your head.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Tom Cutts
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Uh, what you just wrote speaks volumes. Internet Smile
gdw
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You know, I'm gonna take RS1963's advice and remember who I'M speaking to, mr. "staff."
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
RS1963
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Oh Lord! LMAO I'm laughing too hard to even explain to you who I was talking about.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2011-10-29 16:56, landmark wrote:
This wonderful kidney?

Today's NY Daily News had a reader poll that asked the following: "Do you think people should be allowed to sell their own bodily organs for a profit for transplant purposes?"

Curious to hear what you think.

If there's enough interest, I'll post the results of the NY responders later.

For the record, I say no.


Undecided
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
gdw
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Quote:
On 2011-10-29 21:06, RS1963 wrote:
Oh Lord! LMAO I'm laughing too hard to even explain to you who I was talking about.


I thought it was clear I knew who you were referring to, and who you were addressing, hence why I emphasised who I'M talking to. Man, you really are dense.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Turk
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I can go either way on this question.

The problem seems to be that, when making an argument for or against, it seems that the most extreme worst-case scenarios are always cited and then the "conclusion" reached becomes skewed and seems to be based upon said extreme worst-case scenarios, and, as such, there is no middle ground and only an outright ban will suffice.

While I believe that adoptions cannot be purchased, we don't seem to be prohibiting adoptions because of the potential for abuse that a financially desperate mother would be "talked into" giving up her baby for a lucrative pay-out or because of the threat of violence for non-compliance. Are there potentials for abuse in adoptions? Sure, but a number of safeguards (including laws) are in place to minimize such potential abuse and we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. (Sorry, no pun intended.)

Two closer analogies (than adoption) to the organ sale situation might be: 1) the surrogate mother who is paid a very generous sum of money to carry a couple's embryo/baby to term. or, 2) the male s*p*e*r**donor who is paid (handsomely) to donate his s*p*e*r** to a childless couple, single female or ...otherwise. In both instances, the person is paid very well and, as part of such activity (and contract), such person frequently must give up all any and all parental rights he/she might biologically and/or legally have. It seems that society turns the other way in these types of financial arrangements.

As such, would it be so hard (or impossible?) to at least try to craft policies and safeguards which can minimize or eliminate potential abuses that could potentially occur in any such organ sales ( i.e., such as those which assure and guarantee that the donor is making his/her decision both freely and voluntarily) and which said safeguards and proscriptions also take into consideration reasonable ethical and societal concerns?)

I dunno. But, with the number of people so desperately clinging to life and needing an organ donation, and, with the many many people financially destitute and clinging to the most meager almost sub-human existence, perhaps some middle ground could be reached if the principal parties could get together and freely negotiate and if protections against exploitation or coercion could be assured.

And. query: What if the person willing to donate one of his/her organs is not financially destitute but rather just would like to have the extra cash for investment, starting a business, a nest egg, etc.? Would such "non-destitution" situation make an organ sale more palatable to those who want to make certain that financially destitute persons are not "forced" organ donors and are, instead, making a free and rational choice of what they wish to do with their body?

As an analogy: If, as is argued by those in favor of abortion, a person has the (limited?) right to control his/her own body, how is the right to sell your body parts any logically different from the perceived right to control your body by having an abortion?

Adding to the complexity, human rights are sometimes trumped by the "higher" societal rights and policies that, for the greater societal good, take precedence.

Right now, I lean towards not allowing paid organ donations but only because, to me, such sales intuitively seem to result in a lessening and/or degeneration of humankind and/or society in general. However, perhaps my queasiness and unease in this regard is ill-placed and should give way to and be trumped by the free will prerogatives of each person involved in such transactions.

I can certainly see (and appreciate) the pros and cons of both positions. As such, I would respectfully suggest that an extended and in-depth discussion and evaluation of this subject by people of good faith would be the first step in trying to reach consensus and/or resolution of this question. I certainly know that I remain uncomfortably conflicted as I struggle for the "right" answer. And there's the rub. Perhaps, there is no right (or wrong) answer.

Respectfully submitted for your consideration.
Magic is a vanishing Art.

This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto.

Eschew obfuscation.
gdw
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Turk, YOU are a person thinking in the right direction. You are open to being convinced one way or another.

As for the topic, buying and selling organs does not suddenly mean the poor are left with no organs, nor does it mean the rich will buy up all the available organs.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Dr. Van Van Mojo
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You guys might want to give this a read. Very interesting book.
The Red Market: On the Trail of the Worl......t Carney
landmark
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Quote:
Two closer analogies (than adoption) to the organ sale situation might be: 1) the surrogate mother who is paid a very generous sum of money to carry a couple's embryo/baby to term. or, 2) the male s*p*e*r**donor who is paid (handsomely) to donate his s*p*e*r** to a childless couple, single female or ...otherwise. In both instances, the person is paid very well and, as part of such activity (and contract), such person frequently must give up all any and all parental rights he/she might biologically and/or legally have. It seems that society turns the other way in these types of financial arrangements.


Much as I enjoyed reading Turk's post, I'm not so sure that renewable sperm is an apt analogy here. The surrogate mother is closer, though not quite it either, as theoretically, she will be functioning normally thereafter (of course there are loads of practical reasons why this may well not be true). Maybe a closer analogy is the woman who sells her eggs for profit, since the number of ova is pre-determined and not renewable.
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