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Tim Friday Elite user 485 Posts |
First off let me just say I am new, and I could be wrong about what I am going to say here, but I feel it is something we should consider... Perhaps one of our props that invites the most suspicion is our overpriced magician's cups that are used for cups & balls, and chop cups. I realize many magicians take great pride in their expensive cups and many own collections of cups that are worth a fortune. I have seen the thread with all the pictures. But if we want to perform in the 'real world' and have as much impact as possible we should be more selective of the cups we use. We should not use the traditional magic cups that are commonly silver, gold, copper, or brass. Tell me a department store or household store that sells cups that come anywhere close to the appearance of the metallic magicians cups. No normal newlyweds would ever include on their registry a set of antique copper or silver cups. Not even in the wealthiest home, that has the most elaborate china cabinet, will you find a set of ancient looking cups made of brass. (of course I am talking all non-magician here) The problem with magician's cup sets is that to a normal everyday person these are foreign objects. Highly suspicious. No one would ever actually drink a beverage from these cups. If they did, there would be a terrible metallic after taste. Even in a magician's household, these cups are not used for drinking. And if anyone does use their cups for this purpose, by all means, please post a picture on this thread of you and your family nonchalantly sitting at the dinner table eating a meal, and using magician's cups to drink your beverages! You very well may disagree, but please remember you are not disagreeing with me:
Well, I'd like to think I am in good company, but you are free to disagree, after all I'm just the new guy here. Somehow the cups magician's use got caught in a time vacuum. While the rest of the world made great strides of advancement in cup technology, magicians were left behind. Were we simply oblivious to the advancements in technology made with cups? Or more likely since drinking is a social activity and... well, we all know about magicians and social skills... So many of us struggle to relate, and apparently the cups that a magician uses is a symbol of our struggle to relate. And we are left using an object that looks like the cross between an antique doorknob and an ancient goblet. Now I realize some of you are thinking "we use those cups because cups & balls is the oldest trick in magic, so we should use old cups!" I admit, that is an excellent point, worthy of consideration. Shall we examine the original source to see what was used? The hieroglyphic? I am no expert (I'm new) but if I recall those egyptians in the picture were using whatever was common for their time period... So with logic we are able to conclude, if you do an ancient egyptian themed magic show, by all means, please use cups similar to what they used! Otherwise, use what is common for your time period! The only other exception to this are magician's who dress in period costumes. Pirates, renaissance, steam punk, etc are exempt. But I highly suspect most of us don't go around everyday dressed like Master Payne or William Draven (bless their hearts). Well, I'd like to post a picture of the cups I use, but I know sometimes people on these internet forums can be very harsh and extremely mean. So depending how people respond to this post will determine whether or not I post a picture of my cups. By the way, mine cost a very small fraction of what magic cups cost, and they are workers! So if you want to disagree in a mean way, fine, I'll keep the good stuff all to myself! I don't mind if anybody disagrees with me, all I ask is that you please be respectful of me as I am of you. And of course I'm not on a campaign to put the magic dealers out of business. I love the dealers, and I consider one the famous dealers one of my best teachers. Heck, this post won't even put a minor dent in their business. They will always have the collectors who will forever practice 'cup idolatry' and have an unquenchable thirst for the newest or rarest 'cup idol' whether it be cast in gold, silver, brass, copper, or whatever. In closing, a few questions: If Steve Jobs were to have designed a set of cups, how would they look? How dare you have the audacity to disagree?!? Because if you do, you are not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with Darwin Ortiz, Barrie Richardson, Michael Ammar, Dai Vernon, Penn & Teller, and David Letterman (see bullet list above, and yes although I have no proof, I would be willing to bet Letterman would agree with me). And finally, most importantly: How dare you have the audacity to continue performing with a prop that is completely foreign in the 'real world' and has zero emotional connection value to audiences? When there is so much opportunity for other possibilities? (I am really pleading with you here) Well, I'm just the new guy to all this, I'm just trying to learn how to walk as a magician, and I'm falling down all the time, but that's part of being new and learning. Nobody but jerk would be harsh to a baby that is trying to learn how to walk. |
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
If Steve Jobs designed a set of iCUPS, they would probably cost $4,000.00.
The cups and balls trick has lasted thousands of years, and IMHO, no spectator that I have worked for in the last 50 years has ever wondered about the cups. After all, most performers hand the cups to the spectators.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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Chessmann Inner circle 4242 Posts |
I don't really think the spec cares...except for the awe and beauty of looking at a silver Sherwood cup!
(I might submit, that Brett Sherwood is pretty close to the Steve Jobs of cups!). Problem is, Vernon - whom you mention - used magician's cups, magician's rings, leather cones, etc... If you would prefer to use standard drinking types of cups, that's fine, too. Do playing cards have an emotional connection value to the audience?
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-11-07 21:24, Tim Friday wrote: Ok. Quote:
How dare you have the audacity to disagree?!? Erm, framing the question this way is not being respectful of us.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Chessmann Inner circle 4242 Posts |
Heh, if there is a rule that states magicians should only use common, everyday objects to perform magic, it must also be the rule magicians break most!
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
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rklew64 Inner circle 1265 Posts |
Whatever...I would think you'll have a different opinion give another 5-8 years from now. So your basing it on "props that invite the most suspicion" and I guess Zig Zag Lady is for real then. I feel that the medium of any cup is irrelevant - it's about your magic chops. So if you feel that dixie cups are the way to go. then more power to you!
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Devious Inner circle 2120 Posts |
Tsk, tsk, tsk.
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Noel M Loyal user San Rafael. CA 208 Posts |
Magicians cups create a special place of mystery. They aren't supposed to be ordinary, they're magic! If magic was about the real world then everyone could do it.
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billappleton Inner circle Los Gatos, California 1154 Posts |
Wow Tim I can't believe you criticized ritzy looking cups on THIS thread.
Anyway, good job shaking things up. Um, are you wanting to part with that silver set in the picture? |
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Devious Inner circle 2120 Posts |
Wait till Bill Palmer comes along, it's not going to be pretty. I'm outta here!
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
Well, hopefully before Bill has to wait even a minute of his time, perhaps our esteemed lecturer Tim Friday can explain why, according to his hypothesis, Michael Ammar doesn't agree with Michael Ammar...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM6FMMbb-TM ...or why Dai Vernon doesn't agree with Dai Vernon. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRloFGbxDRs
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Devious Inner circle 2120 Posts |
Did you share your sentiments with Gazzo when you went to his Busker Bootcamp Tim? I'm really curious?
I know you are a huge fan of his, so I'm perplexed that you would call his cups "Overpriced". Whilst your post raises some points to ponder, your post is incomplete and without merit, if you do not post an example of which cups are "acceptable" to your standards. Show me yours and I'll show you mine. |
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3014 Posts |
I must say that given the way David Letterman treats magicians on his show, I have no interest in what he thinks.
Michael Ammar, author of one of the most well known books regarding the cups and balls, uses "magic cups." His are made by Johnson - I've handled them myself. While a routine like Lance Burton's, using coffee mugs, is very entertaining, magician's cups are designed in such a way that all kinds of interesting moves are possible. Not that those moves aren't possible with found cups, but the way a Sherwood cup feels in the hands is just incredible. I would counter that one only needs to watch a talented magician performing with their cups to see that the cup truly doesn't matter to the audience. Suzanne uses a wooden cup - who on earth uses a wooden cup in their home? The answer, according to her audiences, is "who cares?" The magic is in the performer, not the props. Over thinking things is one of our worst habits. I'm as guilty of it as anyone, but it's important to take a step back and understand that to our spectators, those cups, the funky blank playing cards, or that weird wooden box that Dean Dill uses to link ropes together...those things aren't what matter. It's what we do WITH them that entertains. Nothing wrong with using normal cups. And nothing wrong with using magician's cups.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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padre rich Special user 635 Posts |
Tim, use what ever suits you. I use everytbing fron dixie cups to sherwoods depending on the circumstance. watch Ammar or Gazzo do the cups for an audience. It's more about performance than cups you use.bU
God's grace rocks! It makes a good cups and balls routine look pretty boring in comparison.
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
He's absolutely right. Magicians should keep up with the times and only use cups that are in use today. After all who drinks out of metal cups?
Nevermind
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
Tim,
(If you are just messing with all of use under some 2nd and fake handle, please ignore the following) If I'm wrong, my apologies, but... Your posts read like you've perused all the "appropriate" books and have never performed a day in your life. For what it's worth your posts like this one remind me of someone who's "just wanting to have fun with his new friends"... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymsHLkB8u3s Maybe I'm wrong?
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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wandmgc8 Regular user Tennessee 140 Posts |
Being just a humble magic manufacturer, I hesitate to join in on this thread, but, can't seem to hold back. I have no problem with Tim's opinion except for the "we" part. Part of the power of magic is being an individual...always seeking out that which identifies our individuality. Saying that "we" should do this, or, not do that scares me away. There are many different props out there designed by individuals in order to enhance the individuality of others. I do not perform, as such, but, gain as much enjoyment from viewing a nice performance with Sherwood, Paul Fox, etc. cups as I would from styrofoam cups and paper balls.
Yes, those fancy cups are expensive, that being the only reason I do not own a set. I enjoy seeing things that you wouldn't normally see every day, and, I believe non-magic folk do, and, will usually take one or more of those memories of individuality with them. Thanks everyone...Michael |
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Harry Murphy Inner circle Maryland 5444 Posts |
The “relevancy” of a prop or props has been discussed many times in many sections here on the Café over the years.
If relevancy mattered then magicians wouldn’t be using pocket knives (in many locals/venues they are simply illegal in the USA), men’s pocket handkerchief’s, oversized leather wallets, or coins especially those coins that haven’t been in circulation in over a decade). However I believe that a magic performance should have unique items (props if you will) interspersed through the performance to garner interest. Magicians of all people should have the odd and interesting “thingy”. Less true for the on-the-fly impromptu (appearing) performance. More true for the established act/performance. I’ve watched over 10 different performers perform the cups and balls standing or sitting with the audience and as an audience member. These were not magic convention audiences but lay people either paying to see a show or about to be asked to pay (by the busker) to see the show. In no case was the cups ever commented upon. In almost all the routines the cups were handed out for examination as part of the routine and the folks standing near the examiner took a close and interested look too. Three or four of the stage performances did not hand the cups out as it would have interrupted the flow of the routine (it is theater after all). I think that props should be in context. Sitting at a bar one could use (as I have) a beer glass wrapped in a paper napkin and perform a very entertaining one-cup-one-ball routine (using a crumpled up dollar bill as the ball) ending with the production of bar fruit (lemon, lime, olives, etc.). I’ve even done a three cup routine using wrapped beer glasses. It is all about context and motivation. Relevancy of prop is probably the least of the variables to be considered. If it was a key or even an important variable then egg bags (goes back to the 1500’s –where producing eggs and chickens was very relevant), linking rings (never were relevant to anyone), thimbles, knives, coins, boxes, bags, and on and on would not be entertaining to paying audiences. Yet all are used in very entertaining routines. As I’ve said before tis not the prop but the performer that makes for good entertainment. It is the performer that gives the prop meaning (relevancy) not the other way around. But then I’d hope that every magician listens to Ortiz and Tim and gives up their silly, unique looking, magic props. Then I’d be the only one left using them. Plus with the law of supply and demand I’d be able to pick up all this junk at almost nothing. But then I could be wrong.
The artist formally known as Mumblepeas!
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Pasquale New user 65 Posts |
Personally, I always liked the version with 3 coffee cups and crumpled dollar bills for balls as seen in Classic Secrets of Magic....
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Octopus Sun Special user Wiggle Wiggle 586 Posts |
That's your Hypothesis. albeit quite wrong.
now as any good Magi would, you must prove your hypothesis. so far, the data you provided, does nothing to support your hypothesis. in fact ALL your data has been proven wrong by other users here on the Café'. plus by all past historic data your statements have been proven incorrect. ANY and ALL Cups in use now are a proven THEORY! as I said any and all! |
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