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magic maniac Special user 516 Posts |
Hi Bob,
Before I ask my question, I have to properly thank-you. My first excursion into mentalism was your Mental Miracles, which was too much for me at the time, but definetely pointed me in the right direction. So thank-you. Now for my question. What are your thoughts on spectator as mind reader routines ? Do you perform these routines in your shows ? Do feel these routines add or take away from that something special which the perfomer does. Thanks, Jonathan |
Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
I too would like to hear your thoughts on this as it seems to be a popular theme lately. I personally don't like it or get it as to me it diminishes what you do, your credibility and the skills or abilities you supposedly have and are trying to showcase. If someone in the audience can simply learn them on the spot and "read minds/thoughts" how special are your talents and abilities?
I've never heard a good argument for doing this. I think much of it comes from the fact that many recent or new to mentalism members here use the psychological approach (body language, NLP, abilities we all have but most don't fully develop, etc.) rather that the psychic approach and this theme of the audience as the psychic can easily fit in with this perspective. I'm open to other perspectives and better justifications. I'd like your perspectives. |
mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Jonathan-
Mindpro has pretty well summed up my thoughts on "spectator as mind reader" effects. Many years ago, when I first read George Anderson's "You, Too, Can Read Minds," I wondered, "Why on earth on would I want to show that anyone else could do what I do?" The whole premise is totally unsuitable to my persona, which is that of a mind reader. If anyone could do it, I reasoned, why would they think what I was doing was so special? Furthermore, I felt, and still feel, that such routines come off too much like magic tricks. I'm not saying that there aren't certain mentalist personae that can pull this off (a master of subliminal communication, for example). It's just that mine isn't one of them. Good thoughts, Bob |
SubconsciousSymbols Loyal user Bristol, UK 250 Posts |
Being a lowly, pathetic neophyte and under the age of 40 I will probably be hung, drawn and quartered for daring to oppose the viewpoints above but...
Do the more experienced mentalists all think that the participant as mindreader plot is a 'magic trick' or a degradation of our status as 'all-powerful mind-melters'? Do effects where the participant uses their 'intuition' take something away from us OR do they give a little something back? I feel it is the latter of the two. We are still there as the facilitators. Clearly if you get someone up from the audience and then have them do a full Q+A act people might start to question YOUR abilities. But shouldn't this process of 'mind-reading' be a two way thing? What about powerful effects where couples seemingly make choices which show that they are compatible mentally? I think it's sad that it just gets written off like this, but as I said at the start of my post according to this place my ideas have no value because I was not a child of the 60's... Asher
'The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious'
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jeremysweiss Special user 742 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-11-21 07:30, SubconsciousSymbols wrote: I think Bob said that it can work for some people. However, does a juggler have an audience member come up on stage and juggle? Does a singer? A dancer? Would the memory act master do this? Would a painter? Would a comedien invote an audience member up on stage to tell a joke? The point is supposed to be that YOU are special. YOU! The audience is the to see YOU. If they could do it too, they would sit at home. If a pianist came out and said, "Look, this is no big deal...let me pull some random person out of the audience and I will show you that Ihe has the potential to play this thing just as well as me", what would be the effect on the audience? Now, you could use your powers to make someone FEEL special. Maybe Sinatra pulled a little sick child on stage whose dream it was to be a singer and sang Twinkle Twinkle, or maybe a juggler pulls a participant up and has him throw a ring at just the right time, showing that a little cooperation goes a long way. The whole thing is contextual. If it is done at all, it should be a minor interlude where, really, everyone knows It is the juggler/singer/magician/pianist doing the work and the participant is someone who ordinarily doesn't feel special (a birthday boy, a disabled person, etc.) but is MADE to FEEL special for THE MOMENT and BY THE PERFORMER. It should have a tearjerker component or a dramatic component, etc. (after all, that is what entertainment is about). But if your premise is, "Gee...we all have this power if only we can tap into it", then your power is nothing special. You are reduced to a grand stage illusionist, where everyone sits in the audience and thinks "gee, if I had a box like that, I could cut a woman in half too!". (The box has the power, not the performer). One of the best reasons (I can think of) to include this type of "look, we can all do this", would be to increase BOR sales for your book that "teaches" everyone this amazing skill you have developed. Just my (incoherent) thoughts.... Jeremy
The Shock Doc
<BR>www.TheShockDocShow.com <BR> <BR> <BR>http://ballycast.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/ballycast-024-2009-03-21.mp3 <BR> <BR>"....Jeremy Weiss has the greatest card trick of ALL TIME!"--Jamie D. Grant. <BR>Start listening to iTricks 11/12/09 |
JanForster Inner circle Germany ... when not traveling... 4190 Posts |
Superb, Jeremy, my thoughts... Jan
Jan Forster
www.janforster.de |
Jim-Callahan V.I.P. 5018 Posts |
This is the main premise of many of my presentations but because of the interactive dynamic of the show (Scripting)
people know and understand that I am sharing my gift for lack of a better word with them. In most of the presentations I have seen by other performers no such dynamic or believable explanation is offered and because of that the spectator as mind reader comes off as being something not unlike a magic trick and greatly diminishes the persona of the performer. Best Wishes, Jim
“I can make Satan’s devils dance like fine gentlemen across the stage of reality”.
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SubconsciousSymbols Loyal user Bristol, UK 250 Posts |
And wonderful thoughts they are too Jeremy. Thanks for taking the time to reply.
The points you make are the same as the point I was attempting (rather crudely) to make by saying that you wouldn't have them come up on stage and do your Q+A act for you. I do however, still feel that there is inherent entertainment value in having the person/people achieve something during an effect. Another example; participant finds their own thought/someone else's using a pendulum. Strong? Clearly NO, according to some of the posts above yours. I am extremely interested in hearing other people's views on this topic as with only us 4 we have a rather pitiful cross section of mystery performers. Another point, in magic (going to get slammed for using that word...) often the strongest effects are framed as the participant doing 'something'. And yet another; coin bending in YOUR hand (the almighty AND egotistical worker of wonders) using YOUR incredible powers. Which by the way if you actually had you wouldn't be abusing silverware at a barmitzvah. OR... The participant (with your influence, help, reassurance AND guidance) bends the coin in her own hand, whilst feeling the 'positive energy' flowing through the very core of her being, manifesting itself as tingling, warmth and a verifiable pulse running throughout her hand. She takes said mutilated currency away with her and whenever she looks at it is catapulted back in her mind to YOU and the experience YOU gave her and the positive affirmations/exercises YOU gave her. Discuss...
'The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious'
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SubconsciousSymbols Loyal user Bristol, UK 250 Posts |
@Jim, having good scripting and a premise for the effect goes without saying doesn't it?
Asher
'The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious'
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Jim-Callahan V.I.P. 5018 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-11-21 10:38, SubconsciousSymbols wrote: I am in the USA, cheap and easy is the way many work. Because performers have no personall depth they assume their patrons/followers crawled from the same pool of metal, intellectual, stagnancy they call home. Hell I was shocked with the lack of depth the performers offered when I was on that TV show a few years back. Bob, has defined what he is and does what he does. Many of these guys come of like the dealers show at an I.B.M. convention. J im H.o.A-X
“I can make Satan’s devils dance like fine gentlemen across the stage of reality”.
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Asher-
The question was what I thought about the premise, not whether or not is was workable for others who have adapted different premises for their "abilities." IN MY OWN SHOW, I often praise spectators for being "good senders" and/or "good receivers" and do effects that illustrate just that. But it is always clear that I am the one who is facilitating what was going on. I also do "synchronicity" effects (name/place, for example) that illustrate the mental affinity that can exist between couples - it's just that it is done within the context of me reading their minds and pointing out, if not outright facilitating, the phenomenon. And, yes, I, too, think that PK effects are more powerful if done in the spectators hands. Not because it makes it seem that THEY are producing the phenomena (something they would not be able to do when they got home after the show, after all) but because it makes it clear that there is no physical contact between me and the object and makes it look less like trickery. There is no need to feel "attacked" just for having a different approach than mine or for being self-deprecatory about it. I never said any one approach is "better" than any other and have just given the reasons that such presentations do not suit my stage character.. Am a bit disappointed that you felt the need to refer to my selected persona as being an "almighty AND egotistical worker of wonders" just because I have a personal preference for a certain presentational approach. And, finally, I don't see what being "a child of the sixties" has to do with anything as most of us who lived through the sixties don't remember them anyway. Peace and Love- Bob |
Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
100% agree with Bob...
100% disagree with Jeremy |
mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
And I agreed 100% with Jeremy! (As far as my own persona goes)
Best- Bob |
Jim-Callahan V.I.P. 5018 Posts |
And I agree that it has to do with personal persona as Bob posted.
Will also offer I understand Jeremy's position/post because I thought the same at one time. Jim
“I can make Satan’s devils dance like fine gentlemen across the stage of reality”.
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SubconsciousSymbols Loyal user Bristol, UK 250 Posts |
Thanks for the reply Bob.
It clarified what you meant by your original post which I think I misinterpreted. The spectator as mindreader approach is not something I use a great deal in my work but I do allow that way of thinking to shape some of my presentations. For the reasons I posted above and some others which I wont delve into now. Because I wish to connect with people on a deeper level (hence the interest in mentalism) and because I do readings or 'Subconscious Symbol Analysis' as I frame it. I feel the need to have them leave feeling better than they did before and also having gained/learned something. Whether it is a positive affirmation of something they already knew or a realization of their own intuition and capabilities, I find that having them do something amazing is a wonderful way to facilitate this. The comment about my age was a little self-deprecating I admit. But it was also a pre-emptive act on my part because I have seen many young performers on here get slammed. Mainly because of their age or lack of experience. Although often times it is because of an attitude that they have. I consider myself well-read (having been studying mentalism intensely for nearly 2 years now) and am very open to listening to advice from others with a great deal more experience than me. The best way to learn IMHO. I agree regarding the PK effects, although I only do a coin bend with a borrowed coin in their hand. Even then usually only as an encore and an 'experiment' which doesn't always work. I find that people feel extremely positive afterwards due to what THEY have achieved, although I only speak from limited experience. As always 'good thoughts' from you... Asher P.S I wasn't bashing YOUR persona in the slightest, I think you have it just right FOR YOU. I just hate the mindset of arrogant performers when it comes across as ''HEY! Look what I can do that you can't!'' as it reminds me of terrible magicians and how I was when I first started performing card magic. Shudder...
'The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious'
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-11-21 13:15, SubconsciousSymbols wrote: I completely agree with you there. Showing off and entertaining are not the same thing. Bob |
TonyB2009 Inner circle 5006 Posts |
Paul Voodini's Kiss of the Clairvoyant allows the performer, as Jim put it, to pass on the gift for a few minutes. It is a very powerful presentation, but in the end of the day the premise is not that anyone can do what the mind-reader can do, but that the mind-reader can facilitate someone to briefly see what he sees. It works very well.
Apart from that the best spectator as mind-reader I saw was an old Tommy Cooper effect, where a spectator puts on a "thought transmitting mask" and looks at the audience. Unknown to him, the card he is transmitting rises out of the mask for all to see! Hilarious, but not relevant to the discussion. Sorry.
Check out Tony's new thriller Dead or Alive http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alive-Varrick-Bo......n+carson
http://www.PartyMagic.ie |
mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Sitting here thinking about this, it dawned on me that mentalists who perform primarily for family and friends actually can be better off using "spectator as mind reader" effects as they wouldn't strain the credulity of people who KNOW that they don't really have special abilities. If they are perceived as "regular guys" with interesting hobbies adapting a mind reader persona could seem a bit pretentious and comical, even phony.
Again, it is a matter of developing a persona that works for the audiences you perform for. No one is a prophet in his own land - and one who tries to be is apt to be laughed at. Good thoughts, Bob |
Odes New user 4 Posts |
Several years ago when I had a venue where the ever-shifting audience allowed me to experiment in developing my act, spurred by a discussion on the Shadow Digest, I methodically tried both appoaches in my own personal quest to answer this question.
I tried all kinds of combinations: mostly them, mostly me, 50-50. FOR ME, Bob's approach proved to be the correct one. I can recieve thoughts, I can transmit thoughts (which a perceptive or intuitive spectator will hopefully recieve), but I leave no doubt that it's me doing the work. It just played better, FOR ME, with me as the focus of "power." And I do feel it comes across less "magic-y". From The Imagitorium, --Odes |
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