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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » What kind of sleight-of-hand skill is the most useful for cheating? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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splice
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Quote:
On 2011-11-30 08:25, Logston wrote:
Dear David, maybe that story tells more about yourself than it tells about me. Smile


I guarantee that in 5 years you'll either have a crappy deal or you'll look back on this comment and feel immense shame. Maybe both.
Expertmagician
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I am personally a riffle stack guy......laymen have heard about seconds and bottoms, so they may look at the deal more carefully.

So, I personally like doing the dirty work during the shuffle, so I can deal clean Smile

Of course, this is a very personal decision.
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Erdnase27
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Quote:
On 2011-11-30 20:28, Expertmagician wrote:
I am personally a riffle stack guy......laymen have heard about seconds and bottoms, so they may look at the deal more carefully.

So, I personally like doing the dirty work during the shuffle, so I can deal clean Smile

Of course, this is a very personal decision.


The great disadvantage of stacking is :

a) when a player leaves, your stack is screwed
b) when an entire stack needs to be preserved, you have to beat a cut (instead of copping cards).

Ofcourse, all this is not necesarily a problem and stacking is great, but false dealing has a lot of virtues that stacking doesn't have (but I am sure you are aware of that Smile just saying:) ).
"He must be content to rank with the common herd." - S.W. Erdnase
DavidGold
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Quote:
On 2011-11-30 20:28, Expertmagician wrote:
I am personally a riffle stack guy......laymen have heard about seconds and bottoms, so they may look at the deal more carefully.

So, I personally like doing the dirty work during the shuffle, so I can deal clean Smile

Of course, this is a very personal decision.


I completly agree and its a shame that most laymen know about centers and bottoms but I still belive that they are usefull if done right, If you have practiced your seconds and bottoms enough where you don't have to change your dealing speed at all and you do not give any tells for your false deals than I think they are a very usefull tool to use. laymen might know about the second and bottom deal but it dosent mean they know how to do it or what to look for Smile

David
Erdnase27
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Why should they suspect you anyway?
Just a regular guy playing some cards Smile
"He must be content to rank with the common herd." - S.W. Erdnase
AMcD
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Hi all.

One of the best weapons available is stacking. Personally, I use stacking and second deal for years and I've never been caught. Stacking, when you are permanent dealer, is the best tool for your partners.

Bottom deal might be pretty interesting but more and more games are using cut cards nowadays. I'm talking for myself here, but it's ages I haven't seen a game without a cut card (talking about Poker, of course).

False running cuts and false cuts can be pretty useful too.

Never underestimate signaling and collusion. Well done it's almost undetectable and possibilities are endless.

Greek deal, center deal, etc. Well...
Vincero
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Nice to see you posting again, Arnold. I'm suprised no one has mentioned the glimpse. Knowing the position and value of just one card can lend a huge advantage to the player with this knowledge. Of course, the glimpse usually has to be used in conjunction with one, or a few of the other techniques mentioned above.

Zac
"Which way I fly is Hell; myself am Hell; And in the lowest deep a lower deep
Still threat'ning to devour me opens wide, To which the Hell I suffer seems a Heav'n" -John Milton, (Paradise Lost)
DavidGold
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The glimpse goes great with a push off second deal or a bottom or greek deal to reserve the top card or bottom card for yourself.
Erdnase27
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Quote:
On 2011-12-01 15:50, AMcD wrote:
Hi all.

One of the best weapons available is stacking. Personally, I use stacking and second deal for years and I've never been caught. Stacking, when you are permanent dealer, is the best tool for your partners.

Bottom deal might be pretty interesting but more and more games are using cut cards nowadays. I'm talking for myself here, but it's ages I haven't seen a game without a cut card (talking about Poker, of course).

False running cuts and false cuts can be pretty useful too.

Never underestimate signaling and collusion. Well done it's almost undetectable and possibilities are endless.

Greek deal, center deal, etc. Well...


QFT Smile
"He must be content to rank with the common herd." - S.W. Erdnase
NFS
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Quote:
On 2011-12-01 16:12, Vincero wrote:
Nice to see you posting again, Arnold. I'm suprised no one has mentioned the glimpse. Knowing the position and value of just one card can lend a huge advantage to the player with this knowledge. Of course, the glimpse usually has to be used in conjunction with one, or a few of the other techniques mentioned above.

Zac


I did the math on it once. In hold'em, being able to peek and control one card each street increases the strength of your hand by about 20% each time. Not good enough in my opinion, considering how situational the move is, and how seldom you'll be the dealer and seeing the turn and river, and how seldom your opponent has a decent hand to call with. Better options are available.
"A gambler without a system is as a ship without a compass."
Vincero
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Quote:
On 2011-12-02 19:13, NFS wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-12-01 16:12, Vincero wrote:
Nice to see you posting again, Arnold. I'm suprised no one has mentioned the glimpse. Knowing the position and value of just one card can lend a huge advantage to the player with this knowledge. Of course, the glimpse usually has to be used in conjunction with one, or a few of the other techniques mentioned above.

Zac


I did the math on it once. In hold'em, being able to peek and control one card each street increases the strength of your hand by about 20% each time. Not good enough in my opinion, considering how situational the move is, and how seldom you'll be the dealer and seeing the turn and river, and how seldom your opponent has a decent hand to call with. Better options are available.


Fair point, but as you note, it does depend largely on the game you're playing.
"Which way I fly is Hell; myself am Hell; And in the lowest deep a lower deep
Still threat'ning to devour me opens wide, To which the Hell I suffer seems a Heav'n" -John Milton, (Paradise Lost)
scalito
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I suggest you watch The Man with the Golden Arm (Sinatra), The Hustler (Newman,Gleason) and Kingpin (Harrelson, Murray). All address the inevitable.
Expertmagician
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AMcD,

I agree that signaling and collusion are VERY powerful.....while practice is required......it easily gives professionals the edge they need.
Of course, people in this forum prefer methods which require more practce and skill....such as seconds, bottoms, palming, stacks, punch, strippers, marked cards, etc, etc. etc.

However, in some environments "like public tournaments" with an official dealer signaling and collusion may be easiest, best and safest....assuming you can trust your partners Smile Using gaffs and sleight of hand on televised events is crazy in my opinion....But, collusion is VERY hard to prove.
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silverking
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Quote:
On 2011-12-05 00:24, Expertmagician wrote:

Of course, people in this forum prefer methods which require more practce and skill....such as seconds, bottoms, palming, stacks, punch, strippers, marked cards, etc, etc. etc.


What people?
You got a lotta jam presuming to speak for the "people" in this forum.
You certainly don't speak for me, in fact, I seriously doubt you speak for anybody but yourself.
Unknown419
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Silverking don't quote me on this but I think that Expertmagician was just speaking in general because collusion and hand signals haven't been spoken about too much here at the Café.

Respectfully,

Doc
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@Doc, Expertmagician

I get your point and I agree. Many people here rely on skills, or dream of an invisible and perfect sleight of hand. Legendary moves. That's why we read questions about the Greek Deal or the Center Deal. Yet, 3 guys playing together at a table are much more powerful than a single-o master of the Middle Deal!

Many people here are just interested in hand techniques, it's a Magic forum after all. And, for sure, sleight of hand techniques are wonderful to watch. Everyone would enjoy being a master in Greak Dealing! Not to mention the Middle Deal. But even if it's still possible that someone has made some money out of them, in true play there are far better techniques to use. Sometimes not even involving sleight of hand, or very easy methods, like killing cards. But how many people really know how to control slugs just using genuine riffles? Certainly not a wide spread field Smile.

For example, there are dozen of methods people call "advantage play" allowing to gain a nice advantage and less risky than a false deal.

But, of course, when you talk with people, it's sexier to say "yeah, tonite I'm gonna rip off suckers using Middle Dealing" than "Us? Oh, we just signal our cards each other".

Anyway, what matters really is what's working for you, what fits your needs. I wouldn't bet that Middle Dealing is a good candidate for many people though...
silverking
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Quote:
On 2011-12-05 04:55, Unknown419 wrote:
Silverking don't quote me on this but I think that Expertmagician was just speaking in general because collusion and hand signals haven't been spoken about too much here at the Café.


You're probably right Doc.

Collusion being the most prevalent form of cheating at cards (is there a Bridge player anywhere who doesn't signal his partner?), I found the comment odd.
Erdnase27
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Location play and killing cards offers a very strong advantage. Collusion is another one of those ruses that defy all detectability.
"He must be content to rank with the common herd." - S.W. Erdnase
Expertmagician
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Let me clarify......I, personally, prefer sleight of hand of clever gaffs.....there is a sense of satisfaction when a successful sleight or rouse if pulled off.
But, collusion has serious advantages.... (Especially, if you don't shuffle or deal the cards.)

Nor do we talk about the old fashoned methods which card hustlers supposedly used to communicate (even if the never knew each other). Such as those described in the Road Hustler book.

I guess I mis-spoke when I said "people in this forum".......I did not mean to represent other people's opinion. But, as DOC stated....I simply wanted to point out that collusion is rarely, if ever, discussed in this section....

More of en emphasis is placed on methods which tend to take more practice.

I know...I know.....collusion also takes practice to avoid detection....Even using marked cards subtlety takes skill and thought to avoid detection. But, in comparison to learning a good bottom deal, riffle stack, cooler, etc. ..... collusion is easy Smile

The main problem with collusion is really trusting your "partner in crime".
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acesover
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Reading the posts about having good running shoes is I believe a thing of the past. Let me explain. Perhaps 40 or 50 years ago when someone was caught cheating they were given a good beating and perhaps depending on the players sometimes never heard from again. I personally know of no disapperances but know of two, how shall I say it bad beats (pun intended). However things change.

Today in my area we have small games to rather large games and if a cheater is found he gets the worse punishment of all. He is banished from all games in the area which unless he is a roaming pro is devasting for him as he can play nowhere in the area. It is a tight knit group here. I am speaking of backroom games and home games here not Casino enviorment. By that I mean I can go to a home game or one of my own games or someone elses run game and almost always encounter few people I know other than the person who invited me. If you cheat and are found out you are banned and that is just as bad as a beating (depends on the beaters attitude at the time of course Smile ).

We had an incident just recently (past 6 months) where an individual was caught cheating in a game that the final prize was a seat to the WSOP plus travel expense (this was to run for 15 weeks) and this was a person who has played at my games for several years and to my knowledge never cheated there. Long story short he can not find a game anywhere at this time. His cheating was extremely simplistic. While dealing glimpsing the bottom card and controling the first 2 cards dealt. Not much of an advantage with a full table but quite an advantage for a short table. Sad thing is he was a good player and really did not have to cheat to stay ahead of the game.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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