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Unknown419
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@Tommy I definitely agree with you. I couldn't have said it any better myself.

@AMcD I agree with you as well.

@ Readers. Don't get me wrong and think that I think that Cagliostro is totally wrong in what he's saying because I'm agreeing with Tommy and AMcD, that is not true. Cagliostro is speaking from a different perspective that he thinks applies to all avenues of the hustling field when it doesn't. If your field of study is the casino then listen to him and learn, if it's the streets or the clubs then you might want to listen to someone else here on this thread.

Remember in Cagliostro's era and most of mine as well, there was no YouTube and this is how the hustlers kept the sleepers (those who didn't know) sleep. The guys that he probably hustled with if they're not already dead, don't even get on the internet, and those that do eyesight is not all that great or is not computer savvy, so since they are set in their ways, no other way is right but theirs, and TO ME this is what Tommy is trying to explain of which I agree with him on. Tommy have a whole lot of wisdom of which at many a times have shut me up, made me listen and put me in my place and I very much respect him for that because no one has all the sense (answers).

What Gagliostro did or what his crew did worked because it pertained to a particular game that he/they were trying to beat, either it was simple or intricate, it doesn't matter as long as it got the money. What you have to do is the same thing, direct your cheating abilities and techniques to the particular game that you're trying to beat; whatever it is.

This is why to answer the original question of this thread "which is the best cheating move?" has no one right answer. The best cheating move is the move that you need to do in order to get the money for the particular game you're playing or the particular environment that you're playing in. This is why Cagliostro stated that some hustler's only did about 2 or 3 great moves because that's all they needed in order to get the money for the particular games that their culture played.

Each culture have games that's peculiar only to them, in other words, what's the use in me learning how to cheat at Euchre (a game that I have never played) when my culture game is Georgia Skin; a game that you might not have ever heard of or played. Note: This is why you don't see a cheating technique or combination for this game in the “Side Strippers or Humps” section of both Blue Book catalogs because the whites just don't play our games.

While I'm on the subject of games.

Quote:

Showing card techniques and exposing card moves has NOTHING to do with being a professional cheat and good cheats don’t do it. Period.



So what you're telling this forum on the down-low is that Tony Giorgio wasn't a professional nor was he a good cheat. Because he clearly stated in his video that he tipped some of his hand mucking moves to Dai Vernon of which Dai Vernon never mentioned who taught him in his videos.

Quote:

I would … suggest that you have not been exposed to or are not conversant to the type people I am referring to.

The hustlers that I have known, and the really good ones, DO NOT DEMONSTRATE what they do - ever. ... These type people have spent much of their life suppressing this self-defeating idiotic boasting and showing off.



Not only did good cheats DEMONSTRATE techniques, they (Erdnase) tipped a whole *** book.

Scarne is a tipper....one of my cheating teachers told me that all the hustler's in the service didn't care for him because he was a coat-puller (tattle-tale/snitcher). The white old timers told me the same thing.

If you're right and they didn't tip techniques like you said, you've just call our famous Professor Dai Vernon a straight out liar because he said that Dad Steven's demonstrated his technique to him, so did Al Kennedy, so did Walter Scott and so did others and the list goes on and on and on.

I mean no disrespect to whom this may concern but I have over a 100 cheating gambling books on my shelf and none of them, I REPEAT, NOT ONE OF THEM was written by a black man (a tipper); so if we didn't do the tipping who did?

Bottom Line: Like I previously stated in a thread a long time ago we all long to admired in some kind of way for our skills and achievements in what we did in life and this is why we're here at the Gambling Spot. You did what you did well, I do what I do well, others do what they do well and so on and so on.

Singing An Old Commercial Jingle

I guess, I'm a tipper, you're a tipper, they're a tipper, … wouldn't y'all like to be a tipper too.

Respectfully

Doc
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Quote:
On 2012-01-25 15:50, Unknown419 wrote:
Cagliostro is speaking from a different perspective that he thinks applies to all avenues of the hustling field when it doesn't. If your field of study is the casino then listen to him and learn, if it's the streets or the clubs then you might want to listen to someone else here on this thread.

No disagreement here. Casinos, country clubs, private games with well-heeled business people and casino card rooms is what I know. That is all I have to know. I don’t know about street hustling and am very thankful I don’t have to.

When Willy Sutton, the notorious bank robber, was asked why he robbed banks he said, “Because that is where the money is.” Same applies to casinos, country clubs and well-heeled players.

Quote:
Remember in Cagliostro's era and most of mine as well, there was no YouTube and this is how the hustlers kept the sleepers (those who didn't know) sleep.

It was all very secret when I first started out and I learned directly from Vegas hustlers. In those days you had to keep your mouth shut and to be in with other hustlers you had to prove yourself in action. Talking about what you could do was BS. You had to be there doing it or you were just another sucker who said he knew a few things.

Nowadays it is not really any different. It is still done that way. The best and newest stuff is still circulated from hustler to hustler, not on YouTube or DVDs.

Quote:
Tommy have a whole lot of wisdom of which at many a times have shut me up, made me listen and put me in my place and I very much respect him for that because no one has all the sense (answers).

Are you two guys trying to play collusion against me? LOL

Quote:
…direct your cheating abilities and techniques to the particular game that you're trying to beat; whatever it is.

No argument here.

Quote:
This is why to answer the original question of this thread "which is the best cheating move?" has no one right answer. The best cheating move is the move that you need to do in order to get the money for the particular game you're playing or the particular environment that you're playing in.

We agree again and that was stated in my first post on this thread.

Quote:
So what you're telling this forum on the down-low is that Tony Giorgio wasn't a professional nor was he a good cheat. Because he clearly stated in his video that he tipped some of his hand mucking moves to Dai Vernon of which Dai Vernon never mentioned who taught him in his videos.

No, not at all. Giorgio was a pro hustler in his younger days and I respect him and his ability. However, he tipped some things when he became a magician and entertainer to Vernon and Miller but he was careful as to what he tipped. He also stated that he would not tip things that would hurt hustlers that he knew who were still active. I will say that his muck moves in general are somewhat dated and would not fly in a casino environment. Different type muck moves are used nowadays.

The latest stuff is not being tipped to magicians and demonstrators. It is being used. When it finally gets in books, on YouTube or on expose DVDs, it is pretty after the fact and the hustlers (casino) have moved on to something else or changed the workings significantly.

Quote:
Not only did good cheats DEMONSTRATE techniques, they (Erdnase) tipped a whole *** book.

Scarne is a tipper....one of my cheating teachers told me that all the hustler's in the service didn't care for him because he was a coat-puller (tattle-tale/snitcher). The white old timers told me the same thing.

If you're right and they didn't tip techniques like you said, you've just call our famous Professor Dai Vernon a straight out liar because he said that Dad Steven's demonstrated his technique to him, so did Al Kennedy, so did Walter Scott and so did others and the list goes on and on and on.


Erdnase is questionable and severely dated. He may have been a part time hustler/magician/demonstrator and was hyped by Vernon which made him popular among hobbyist and magicians. I have know some incredibley capable hustlers who never even heard of Erdnase.

Scarne was not a hustler,he was a magician. Vernon was not a hustler, he was a magician. Neither could get the money. Kennedy and his center deal is a joke in my opinion and Walter Scott was made famous by Vernon and was a small timer if he hustled at all. Since you mentioned Giorgio, he is of the same opinion as I just stated above regarding Scarne, Erdnase, Scott, Kennedy,the Center Deal, etc. Not that I am relying on him to back me up, I am just mentioning this because you mentioned Giorgio.

We are not talking about magic books or DVD exposes here. The hustlers that I have known, and the really good ones, DO NOT DEMONSTRATE what they do - ever. ... These type people have spent much of their life suppressing this self-defeating idiotic boasting and showing off and what they do and how they do may not be in your books. You are talking about moves here . There is so much more to this than the seconds, bottoms and run-up, etc. I’m not saying those things can’t be used at the right time and in the right spot, but there is so much more to this that that. I suggest the really big, big scores that run into the hundreds of thousands actually use little or no moves or maybe an occasional move.

Quote:
Bottom Line: …You did what you did well, I do what I do well, others do what they do well and so on and so on.

I think we are pretty much in agreement on most of this, with perhaps minor disagreement in some areas.

Fact is, you and I live in different worlds.
Unknown419
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Quote:

Fact is, you and I live in different worlds.


You explained Giorgio's position of which I understand and yes we live in different worlds and neither is better nor less than the other, we both got he money and that was our job.

Take care and may the Lord bless you and your family.


Respectfully,

Doc
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Since commentaries on Tony Giorgio have been mentioned above and he and writings are of interest to magicians and gambling move hobbyists, I am going to post a review of The Ultimate Work I wrote some time back for another purpose. Since I have not seen any detailed commentaries on this DVD and since it appears applicable to this thread, possibly this review might be of passing interest to a few of the members.

Quote:
Tony Giorgio’s DVD entitled, The Ultimate Work purports to demonstrate the “real work” on the subject of hand mucking, as opposed to the magician’s and expose demonstrator’s renditions of same. The designation of “Ultimate Work” might seem a bit pretentious, but what the heck that’s show biz.

I have written favorably about Giorgio’s ability and knowledge in the past and although I don’t know him personally, there is no doubt that he “walked the talk” in his earlier days. His commentary and previous writing on the subject quite definitely convey that fact. The mucks he describes were evidently used by him under fire at some point in his life and more importantly, his philosophy and understanding of the subject goes beyond what most magicians and expose artists usually convey or understand.

The DVD is not meant to be a comprehensive treatise on mucking and there are many “real work” mucks and mucking techniques that are not part of this DVD. The moves Giorgio demonstrates are those that Giorgio evidently developed and used many years ago and in a number of instances have been replaced by more modern and better methods, especially in the area of casino hand mucking. Giorgio’s work in this DVD is almost exclusively aimed at mucking in private games and is really not applicable for casino use. Then again, in all fairness, the best casino mucks for Blackjack and Baccarat, as well as for Texas Hold’em dealt in casino card rooms, have not been exposed by anyone in books or on DVDs – at least not yet. Such techniques and methods are still fairly unknown at this point in time.

What Giorgio does on the DVD is take a standard move (like the machine break off), and then show all the variations of that move that he has developed and used in the past. Additionally, he demonstrates a multitude of ways to palm cards prior to capping the deck. These palming moves for capping the deck are in part, but not entirely, variations of the basic move described by Erdnase under Skinning the Hand in The Expert at the Card Table. His demonstration of actually capping the deck itself, after palming, offers a good lesson for the interested viewer as Giorgio starts with a chip on top of the tabled pack. Placing a chip on the top of the deck is a relatively standard way of “protecting the deck” and Giorgio caps two cards so he can burn the top card before dealing the draw. (Capping the deck applies primarily to the game of Draw Poker and Low Ball Draw Poker in this DVD presentation, but is applicable to other card games as well as different variations of poker.)

Additionally, some of his techniques were designed for poker games and conditions that existed in the past and not for the modern professional full game poker environment of today where the players are sitting arm to arm. His Blackjack muck is more of an oddity (which he admits would never fly under today’s conditions), and his Gin Rummy moves, while interesting and still workable, do not represent the latest methods currently in use. His capping the deck moves are designed more for a shorthanded poker games as the muck techniques demonstrated would tend to “leak” under modern full table conditions. A hustler would definitely have to pick his spots in such instances. (Then again, a hustler always has to pick his spots and gear his moves to the game conditions encountered.)

The philosophy Giorgio conveys is valuable and beneficial to those who have a real interest in the subject, keeping in mind these moves were used a great many years ago. This doesn’t detract from their value and a serious student will definitely benefit from Giorgio’s commentary, demonstrations and perspective. The moves are applicable today in many private games for those who have the desire, audacity and courage to muck under fire.

Giorgio appears to be in his mid 80s and therefore the pace of the two DVDs is rather slow in comparison to the Forte, Piacente and Malek videos/DVDs. However, keep in mind these are teaching and not demonstration DVDs. Giorgio goes over each move 4 or 5 times, and for some this might prove to be tiresome, but it eliminates the necessity of rewinding the DVD over and over again. For serious students looking to master these moves, this is an advantage.

All in all, I recommend this DVD and I think some members of this site will benefit from purchasing and learning from an old timer who really has been there. (An experienced or top notch hand mucker who works under fire, especially a casino mucker, might find the DVD of passing interest, but that’s all. However, many serious viewers, especially magicians, should find the information to be of considerable benefit.

For me, it was a wonderful trip back to a previous era and the world of the old time hustler, and we all benefit by having someone like Giorgio convey this type information while he is still able to do so.

For those who are looking for flashy, whiz bang, razzmatazz BS demo work, this is not the DVD to buy. But for someone who is serious about learning from an old timer who knows what he is talking about, and perhaps picking up a few pointers along the way, I recommend The Ultimate Work.
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@Cagliostro,

Can you make some moves at the table? I mean, have you got a decent bottom deal or can you second deal. Can you stack a set, etc?
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On 2012-01-26 14:45, AMcD wrote:
@Cagliostro,

Can you make some moves at the table? I mean, have you got a decent bottom deal or can you second deal. Can you stack a set, etc?

I don’t know the reason for your question, but that is all pretty basic stuff. Let me very briefly give you a hint to my progression on this “gambling” type mastery. I am not going to boast nor am I going to tip anything good, but I know some are curious. So take the following for what it is worth, if anything.

When I was 10 – 11 years old, I was an amateur magician and would occasionally go to downtown NY and visit Max Holden’s and Lou Tannen’s Magic shops on 42nd street off Broadway. (I’m from the Bronx originally so it was about a 45 minute subway ride to Manhattan.) One day at Tannen’s, when I was 13 years old, I saw a copy of the Expert at the Card Table on the store’s book shelf and took it home. Once I started to read it that was the end of magic for me. I was enchanted with all the moves in the card cheating section and by 14 years of age, had learned and mastered all the run-ups, bottom deal, holding out, hops, cull shuffles, skinning the hand, etc., in Erdnase because at that time, I thought Erdnase was the be all, end all when it came to gambling moves. Since I was studying classical piano and practicing for 2-3 hours a day on the Steinway, all these gambling moves came very easily. It was actually a piece of cake compared to classical piano. Once I got the bug, I could not stop practicing this stuff, much to the chagrin of my parents who for some strange reason thought learning classical piano was more important that learning how to deal base.

Then I got exposed to some information (which I am not going to get into) at 14 years old, that gave me a very good hint as to how the big money hustlers were making the big money plays, and it was not Erdnase. Now I was really hooked. There were no videos or DVDs in those days, most magicians knew nothing about gambling moves, this all was very hush-hush, so I had to hunt and scrounge to pick up bits and pieces wherever I could locate them over the next several years. Scarne on Cards, Scarne on Dice, How to Control Fair Dice, MacDougall’s Card Mastery, Gamblers Don’t Gamble and Danger in the Cards, Sharps and Flats, Buckley’s Card Control, Expert Card Technique, Eddie McQuire’s Walter Scott manuscript, Merlin’s…and a Pack of Cards and Hugard’s More Card Manipulation Vol. 2 (for the riffle stack and riffle stack double duke), The Sealed Book, The Open Book, Moss’ Card Cheats – How They Operate, all of Vernon’s books, plus the KC Card Company’s catalog. Some of these books were devoted exclusively to gambling and cheating, others just had an occasional move here and there.

I was addicted, became a “move” junky and mastered just about every move you can think of, numerous variations therein and developed quite a few original concepts. By the time I was 17 years old, I was very skillful and extremely accomplished (but not “capable”) with dice and cards. Because of this (and because I was from the Bronx), I thought I was King Kong and I really knew what this was all about. Boy was I wrong. I was just a glorified wise-ass NY half-smart who had mastered a lot of moves, had a lot of knowledge ABOUT cheating and though I was the be all, end all when it came to card and dice hstling. I was in for some serious surprises.

I went into the Marine Corps shortly thereafter so as not to be drafted in the Army, and while stationed at the Marine Corps Air Station, El Toro at Santa Ana, CA, I used to travel to Gardena and sneak into the card rooms there (I was not 21 yet). While playing there I figured out two moves to beat both the Draw poker game and also the Low Ball draw game. One was completely original and I have never had anyone pick up on it or suspect it, nor have anyone ever written about it or exposed it. I subsequently found out the Low Ball move was being used by other hustlers in the big games played by a few of the big name poker names of today.

After being discharged from the Marine Corps at 21 years of age, I moved to Las Vegas and got involved with gambling. I am not going to tell you how it happened, but got duked into some of the top Vegas active professional hustlers. Because I took my Bronx heritage with me, “never tip, never rat out anyone, never expose anything to chumps or half-smarts, never boast about your ability, always play the IG,” I got to learn about things I never dreamed of and which I am not going to go into. That is where I jumped from being proficient to capable.

The way it worked was the good stuff that was currently being used was passed on by direct contact on a need to know basis to those who were active in hustling. Nobody tipped the current gaffs because it was their livelihood and to expose what they were doing to the non-hustlers would be to make the gaff useless and dangerous. On a couple of occasions, people got killed for saying the wrong thing to the wrong people. So regardless what anyone on this board thinks, it is still done that way today with the new, current stuff that is being used. It is not in books or on DVDs and won’t be until it gets played out and the hustlers have gone on to something else.

By the way AMcD, I hope my explanation was not too brief and I answered your question sufficiently.
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Hahaha, nicely put Cagliostro.

Let me tell you something though.

I want you to know I have big respect for you. First, because you're obviously older than I am and I'm the kind of person taking care about such things. Second, you always took the time to answer my questions with politeness, accuracy and great style. Last point, you showed proficiency in fields I am very poorly educated, like casinos. I'd like to add I really appreciate true old timers sharing their experience, it's rather uncommon.

Thus, I didn't want to show you disrespect with my question and I hope you'll trust me on that.

Simply put, I read your review above and there's something I hate a lot: people criticizing sleight of hands when they have no skills themselves (and there are very common among magicians and forum members!). I wasn't really (in my mind) categorizing you in that black flock, because according to what I read from you it looked obvious you knew your business. But we never know, hence my question.

Now I have my answer, thanks for that.
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Quote:
On 2012-01-26 19:09, AMcD wrote:
...you always took the time to answer my questions with politeness, accuracy and great style.

Thanks for the nice complement. I see we finally agree 100% on something. LOL
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That was beautiful, Cagliostro. A great read with a cliffhanger at every paragraph. Thanks.
"A gambler without a system is as a ship without a compass."
Unknown419
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Quote:
On 2012-01-26 18:29, Cagliostro wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-01-26 14:45, AMcD wrote:
@Cagliostro,

Can you make some moves at the table? I mean, have you got a decent bottom deal or can you second deal. Can you stack a set, etc?

I don’t know the reason for your question, but that is all pretty basic stuff. Let me very briefly give you a hint to my progression on this “gambling” type mastery. I am not going to boast nor am I going to tip anything good, but I know some are curious. So take the following for what it is worth, if anything.

When I was 10 – 11 years old, I was an amateur magician and would occasionally go to downtown NY and visit Max Holden’s and Lou Tannen’s Magic shops on 42nd street off Broadway. (I’m from the Bronx originally so it was about a 45 minute subway ride to Manhattan.) One day at Tannen’s, when I was 13 years old, I saw a copy of the Expert at the Card Table on the store’s book shelf and took it home. Once I started to read it that was the end of magic for me. I was enchanted with all the moves in the card cheating section and by 14 years of age, had learned and mastered all the run-ups, bottom deal, holding out, hops, cull shuffles, skinning the hand, etc., in Erdnase because at that time, I thought Erdnase was the be all, end all when it came to gambling moves. Since I was studying classical piano and practicing for 2-3 hours a day on the Steinway, all these gambling moves came very easily. It was actually a piece of cake compared to classical piano. Once I got the bug, I could not stop practicing this stuff, much to the chagrin of my parents who for some strange reason thought learning classical piano was more important that learning how to deal base.

Then I got exposed to some information (which I am not going to get into) at 14 years old, that gave me a very good hint as to how the big money hustlers were making the big money plays, and it was not Erdnase. Now I was really hooked. There were no videos or DVDs in those days, most magicians knew nothing about gambling moves, this all was very hush-hush, so I had to hunt and scrounge to pick up bits and pieces wherever I could locate them over the next several years. Scarne on Cards, Scarne on Dice, How to Control Fair Dice, MacDougall’s Card Mastery, Gamblers Don’t Gamble and Danger in the Cards, Sharps and Flats, Buckley’s Card Control, Expert Card Technique, Eddie McQuire’s Walter Scott manuscript, Merlin’s…and a Pack of Cards and Hugard’s More Card Manipulation Vol. 2 (for the riffle stack and riffle stack double duke), The Sealed Book, The Open Book, Moss’ Card Cheats – How They Operate, all of Vernon’s books, plus the KC Card Company’s catalog. Some of these books were devoted exclusively to gambling and cheating, others just had an occasional move here and there.

I was addicted, became a “move” junky and mastered just about every move you can think of, numerous variations therein and developed quite a few original concepts. By the time I was 17 years old, I was very skillful and extremely accomplished (but not “capable”) with dice and cards. Because of this (and because I was from the Bronx), I thought I was King Kong and I really knew what this was all about. Boy was I wrong. I was just a glorified wise-ass NY half-smart who had mastered a lot of moves, had a lot of knowledge ABOUT cheating and though I was the be all, end all when it came to card and dice hstling. I was in for some serious surprises.

I went into the Marine Corps shortly thereafter so as not to be drafted in the Army, and while stationed at the Marine Corps Air Station, El Toro at Santa Ana, CA, I used to travel to Gardena and sneak into the card rooms there (I was not 21 yet). While playing there I figured out two moves to beat both the Draw poker game and also the Low Ball draw game. One was completely original and I have never had anyone pick up on it or suspect it, nor have anyone ever written about it or exposed it. I subsequently found out the Low Ball move was being used by other hustlers in the big games played by a few of the big name poker names of today.

After being discharged from the Marine Corps at 21 years of age, I moved to Las Vegas and got involved with gambling. I am not going to tell you how it happened, but got duked into some of the top Vegas active professional hustlers. Because I took my Bronx heritage with me, “never tip, never rat out anyone, never expose anything to chumps or half-smarts, never boast about your ability, always play the IG,” I got to learn about things I never dreamed of and which I am not going to go into. That is where I jumped from being proficient to capable.

The way it worked was the good stuff that was currently being used was passed on by direct contact on a need to know basis to those who were active in hustling. Nobody tipped the current gaffs because it was their livelihood and to expose what they were doing to the non-hustlers would be to make the gaff useless and dangerous. On a couple of occasions, people got killed for saying the wrong thing to the wrong people. So regardless what anyone on this board thinks, it is still done that way today with the new, current stuff that is being used. It is not in books or on DVDs and won’t be until it gets played out and the hustlers have gone on to something else.

By the way AMcD, I hope my explanation was not too brief and I answered your question sufficiently.


This is basically how I started out as well except that I'm not from the Bronx, I'm from Harlem and it took me about 30 minutes on the train to get to Tannen's which was on 48th street on the top floor at the time I went in the 70's. Yes I purchased all the exact same books that Caglistro purchased and still have them 'til this day. I thought that I was great until I started studying with the magicians down at Reuben's. My teachers were Frank Garcia, Gene Maze, Ken Krenzel, Doug Edwards, Herb Zarrow, Mark Mitton, Harry Lorayne, Tony Moley, Wesley James, Sal Piacente (we both were amatuer's then) and the list goes on and on. I still thought that I was great until I went on the road and boy oh boy did I get a rude awakening about how good I really was. I had to re-learn basically every thing all over again, I had to dismiss 99% of every thing that the magicians told and taught us in their books (that's why I started this site so no one will get tricked like I was) and then I had to adjust the moves to the card table.

I learned the Whip Shot and Pad Roll from a Spanish guy from Rochester NY when I was up there with the Turk; this is where I first met Joe Phafone (not sure of this spelling) an up and coming cheat in the early 90's. I also learned an unusual shot from a friend of mine who was a billionaire from St. Maarten (Chapelton) who is now diseased and the Greek Shot later on in Dallas Texas right along with the Spin Shot.

So since Cagliostro's story is exactly like mine except for a few things here and there, I have to believe what he's saying is true.


Respectfully,

Doc
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So, you knew a dice cheat who had a billion dollars? Did he want to sell you any bridges?
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!



"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill
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Quote:
On 2012-01-27 13:29, Unknown419 wrote:
I still thought that I was great until I went on the road and boy oh boy did I get a rude awakening about how good I really was. I had to re-learn basically every thing all over again, I had to dismiss 99% of every thing that the magicians told and taught us in their books (that's why I started this site so no one will get tricked like I was) and then I had to adjust the moves to the card table.

That is a good point. Probably 99% of the people on this forum are magicians, gambling move hobbyists, demonstrators, dilettantes and so on with no direct experience or desire to use any of the “gambling type” moves they have learned, practiced and mastered in a gambling game. Interestingly, it is usually either directly or indirectly assumptive on their part that these moves they learned are practical and actually work in the real world and further, if they really wanted to go for the money they could do so with what they have. It is also somewhat assumptive that the more moves and variations one has mastered, the more dangerous he would be in a game format. In my opinion, both those assumptions are grossly incorrect.

I still remember when I was a teenager practicing these moves for hours in front of a three-way mirror (no video cameras in those days), checking each move from every angle, reveling in the minute briefs on my double-t’s (strike seconds), the hops (shifts), the mucks, pikes (peeks) and so on. But no matter how skillful I got, I did not understand at the time that what I was acquiring was largely theoretical and to some degree a make-believe and often impractical accomplishment. Here is why:

Let’s assume you want to use your perfect 1/8 inch brief “Two” deal (second deal) in a game for example. When practicing at home you are warmed up and doing the same move over and over again. The deck is usually new so you can have a minute brief, you are under no pressure and if you flub the move, so what. Just go back and do it again. However, what you are practicing under these conditions is not what you will encounter in a game.

Now let’s assume an eight handed round game where all the players get to shuffle and deal. First of all, you are not warmed up when it is your turn to deal. It may be 15 minutes or more before the deal comes around to you and you are picking up the deck cold. You can’t practice the move a couple of times before you use it. You have to use it then and there as needed. The cards may be getting a little worn, maybe some of them are getting bent, perhaps sticky, there may be some people milling around the game, some spectators may be standing up looking down at the game, perhaps even walking behind you. In order to deal over the chips or to reach the other players, either on the other side of the table or to you right or left, you may have to extend your arms and point your hands to different players on the game as you go around the table, so now your hands may not be in the perfect position to hit your “Two” the way you practiced. Coupled with that you are nowhere as calm as you were on the kitchen table. In fact, as a newbie hustler you are probably extremely nervous which will affect or hinder your execution of the move to one degree or another, perhaps greatly. The bottom line is you are going to have to make adjustments and changes to your beautiful “Two” deal because it is not practical under the conditions you are encountering.

What you thought was a great Two deal is in need of some adjustment, maybe major adjustments. And the only way to know what to change and how to change it is to use it “under fire.” You might have to adjust it several times over a period of time before it gets workable to your satisfaction. Dealing around the table in the real world where you could get “nailed” is a lot different than dealing face down on a practice pad at home. The above discussion assumes the technique in question is even valid to begin with which in many cases it is not. Many “gambling” techniques may be great for demonstration purposes, but ridiculous when used in a gaming scenario.

Additionally, now you have to clock the players when dealing, you have to incorporate timing and grift sense; you have to be able to “work” under conditions you never anticipated in your home practice sessions. And this is just one small example using a basic second deal. How about the accompanying “other” things that have to be used in conjunction to make your second deal work to get the money (peeking, carrying a slug, using paper and so on.) In a game, no move is done in a vacuum as in a demonstration. Many other factors have to be incorporated to get the cash. You might even find that all the fancy variations you mastered are completely useless under these conditions.

Further, if I had a choice of working with someone with a “mediocre” second deal with a half inch brief who had repeatedly proved himself and gotten the money under fire as opposed to someone with a magnificent second deal with numerous impeccable variations who had never tried it in a game, I would unhesitatingly choose the guy with the “mediocre” second. And this is just a very simple example using a second deal.

You can’t learn or acquire this ability from books, DVDs, other magicians, demonstrators or the world’s greatest gambling guru. You can only learn this aspect of moving by doing it under fire. And if you have never tried to do it under fire against reasonably astute players, you will probably have no idea of what I am talking about or disagree without knowing.

We are not talking about playing on the square and then pulling a second when no one is looking to test your nerve. That is just fooling yourself because you are not using the second in that instance to get the money, you are just “sneaking” a second in vacuum with no valid objective.

For most hobbyists on this board, the situations described above will not be a problem for them as they will never try to go for the money in a worthwhile game. One of the benefits hobbyists derive from learning these moves is to show, discuss and vicariously experience the world of “hustling.” Additionally, it is easier, safer and a lot more fun to posture with theoretical knowledge, expertise and ability on BBs, in front of other magicians, hobbyists and the like then to move in a game and I have no problem with that. However, when posturing against someone who has “been there,” it becomes obvious very quickly how valid such pretending is.

Generally speaking, those that posture have usually not “been there” or are not currently active. Those that have been there really have no "rational" reason to posture and should not if they are currently active at hustling unless they want their boasting to possibly come back someday and bite them when they least expect it.

Bottom line for those who are looking to use these moves for their intended purpose, be aware what you practiced at home and what you think works will probably be different from what you can actually use in a game until the necessary experience is acquired.
tommy
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Now we can assume its an eight handed round game of poker where all the players get to shuffle but if so, what I would ask in the first the place is, what would be the point of dealing seconds at all? Are we to assume the cards in the game in question are marked in the first place? If we are to assume the cards in the game in question are marked then wouldn't that info alone give one enough advantage to get the money without having to resort to second dealing as well? Personally I have always assumed that second dealing was a move used more in games like Black Jack rather than poker. Haven't seen private 21 games for years but Pontoon used to popular here and so too Shoot, which are 21 games. In those the players would take turns in being the banker.
Moreover I have not seen a eight handed round game of poker where all the players get to shuffle deal in a very long time. Poker in my experience has always been a game where dealers are employed to deal. In my neck of the woods poker has never been a game, it's always been a business. The business of charging players an hourly fee or taking a rake, the business of earning money by dealing by way of tips and so on.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Quote:
On 2012-01-31 23:41, tommy wrote:
Now we can assume its an eight handed round game of poker where all the players get to shuffle but if so, what I would ask in the first the place is, what would be the point of dealing seconds at all? Are we to assume the cards in the game in question are marked in the first place? If we are to assume the cards in the game in question are marked then wouldn't that info alone give one enough advantage to get the money without having to resort to second dealing as well?

I don’t mean to be impolite but perhaps you did not understand what the post was conveying. Obviously the second deal was used as an EXAMPLE because most all on this board are acquainted with the move, although there are a number of ways it can be used in a round game like Draw and Hold’em which you should be aware of. It is not just used with marked cards but with stacks, slugs, flashes and peeks.

Usage of a second deal is basic stuff but the post was meant to explain the PROCESS in the DEVELOPMENT of a move in live play, not the situations of HOW it can be used. That is a different subject and not relevant to the information the post was conveying. We could have used almost any move as an example. Did you not understand that?

Quote:
Moreover I have not seen a eight handed round game of poker where all the players get to shuffle deal in a very long time. Poker in my experience has always been a game where dealers are employed to deal. In my neck of the woods poker has never been a game, it's always been a business. The business of charging players an hourly fee or taking a rake, the business of earning money by dealing by way of tips and so on.

You are not a hustler and your experience appears to be somewhat limited. There are many private high stake games today with businessmen and professional people where the players shuffle and deal themselves. These are very big games. I am surprised you are not aware of this and that not everyone plays in card rooms. Some of the best games are not in card rooms. Many high income professional people and business men simply don’t play in card rooms.

However, once again that is irrelevant as we were conveying the process of developing a move in live play.

You seem to continually miss the ESSENSE of the PRINCIPLES and CONCEPTS being discussed on my posts and concentrate only on off the wall minutia and inconsequential distractions.

I have only read a few of your posts as they pertain to the concepts I discuss, ideas that are meant to benefit the members. Once again, I don’t mean to be impolite but do you have any idea as to what hustling is all about and what I am conveying in my posts? So far, you have never said anything that demonstrates you do.
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Cagliostro,

Don't forget tommy is in UK, games are not the same, habits are not the same, etc. Personally, all the games above one grand buy-in that I've seen there were hired dealers. Even in our amateur leagues we have dealers at the final tables. In the private games I play (low stakes, like from $75 to $200) it's not uncommon to have someone as permanent dealer too.

Second deal is great. Stacking is even superior. In my games, we have plastic cards, cut cards and 3 people involved for every round (unless there's a permanent dealer, of course). Forget about passes, bottom deal, hops, etc. Collusion, peeking, second deal... Works fine.
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Just saying here.

In my games I use a dealer in cash games because there is a rake. In tounrament format everyone deals. Once in a while someone will deal the final table. Usually not.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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On 2012-02-02 06:54, AMcD wrote:
Cagliostro,

Don't forget tommy is in UK, games are not the same, habits are not the same, etc...
In my games, we have plastic cards, cut cards and 3 people involved for every round (unless there's a permanent dealer, of course). Forget about passes, bottom deal, hops, etc. Collusion, peeking, second deal... Works fine.

I agree. Poker procedural changes and game formats have changed significantly over the last several years and many methods that were viable in the past are now obsolete in many areas, although the game is still quite vulnerable to those that are determined to get an advantage. I'm sure we will see many more changes in the future.

We now have automatic shuffle machines, center dealers and although they are making inroads slowly, the Poker Pro tables which eliminate the center dealer entirely. Players still like to hold the cards and shuffle the chips while playing, but as the younger generation which was weaned on electronic devices becomes of playing age, who knows how the games will evolve in the future.

Casinos now have electronic craps, roulette, blackjack and poker. Although I have not seen any higher stake games in electronic format, perhaps it is just a matter of time. The hustlers of the future may be the hackers, not the sleight of handers.
tommy
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Quote:

You are not a hustler and your experience appears to be somewhat limited. There are many private high stake games today with businessmen and professional people where the players shuffle and deal themselves. These are very big games. I am surprised you are not aware of this and that not everyone plays in card rooms. Some of the best games are not in card rooms. Many high income professional people and business men simply don’t play in card rooms.



Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Quote:
On 2012-02-03 19:33, tommy wrote:
Quote:

You are not a hustler and your experience appears to be somewhat limited. There are many private high stake games today with businessmen and professional people where the players shuffle and deal themselves. These are very big games. I am surprised you are not aware of this and that not everyone plays in card rooms. Some of the best games are not in card rooms. Many high income professional people and business men simply don’t play in card rooms.



Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Nothing extraordinary here, just a simple statement of fact.
tommy
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If you say so. What is the reason for them not having a dealer, Lady Fingers will deal anywhere?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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