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vinsmagic
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To all here on this post,,,, french drop has been more than a gentelman on the Café,,,,,, and the amount of posts have nothing to do with anyhthing.....so please fet off his case
vinny
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gary31525
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Quote:
On 2012-01-22 00:20, vinsmagic wrote:
To all here on this post,,,, french drop has been more than a gentelman on the Café,,,,,, and the amount of posts have nothing to do with anyhthing.....so please fet off his case
vinny


Agreed Smile
Merc Man
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Quote:
On 2012-01-22 00:32, gary31525 wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-01-22 00:20, vinsmagic wrote:
To all here on this post,,,, french drop has been more than a gentelman on the Café,,,,,, and the amount of posts have nothing to do with anyhthing.....so please fet off his case
vinny


Agreed Smile


Seconded. I've had a couple of disagreements with F.D. and we don't always see 'eye to eye'.........but I'd still buy him a pint as he's clearly a good'un.
Barry Allen

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FrenchDrop
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Thank you, gents. Much appreciated!
"A great magician has said of his profession that its practitioners '… must pound and rack their brains to make the least learning go in, but quarrelling always comes very naturally to them.'” -- Susanna Clarke, Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell
Adam1975
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The irony of the pledge disintergrating in a thread about the pledge............. Smile
Ive upped my standards.Now,up yours!
Roger Kelly
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And anyone signing up must use this as their avatar!

Dust and protect!

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kcg5
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First post in thread-GREAT!!! And then it slowly devolves into what we all knew it would become, a fight. I don't see it happening. PLenty of people do "the pledge" anyway, everyday-people like Pepka or Vlad, and then there are..others. But, I'll do my best.

Still, Steve, a great Idea. Would love to see the staff take it on as well.
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!



"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill
Roger Kelly
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Quote:
On 2012-01-22 13:50, kcg5 wrote:
Would love to see the staff take it on as well.

Hear, Hear!
Slide
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"I'm going to let it go. I don't want to force you to make any more posts in a thread you consider a waste of time. "

I don't consider the thread a waste of time. I consider argueing about the thread a waste of time, which is what it seems to evolve into. And if I made mention on your number of posts, you can do what you want certainly. This is more about me shaking my head about what a suck of time forums like this can be. You and me both.

There is a great tendancy and urge to waste time here, for whatever reason. It is fun to talk about magic. But it is better to practice magic, read about magic, improve your routines and acts. I'll be 58 next year. Currently I'm the oldest living male on my father's side of the family in nearly 200 years. My own father died at 54. His father died at 56. His father died at 55.

Time, in other words, is precious. There are people who spend a lot of time here because they are selling products. There are other folks that spend a lot of time here when that time would be better spent getting better at the art, assuming that is the reason they come here in the first place. I only come here to use the archives to research, and drop the occasional post when it interests me.

My post was not meant as a dig on the topic or any person. It was just an expression of sadness seeing all the time wasted that could be better spent making magic a more interesting thing in the world by getting better at it. Reading this forum and endlessly argueing about the minutia of every little word said, jealousies, baiting, trolling, churn churn churn and at the end - have you created a body of work like your heros? I know that is my aim before I shuffle off this mortal coil. It is not done slugging through the usual mind-numbing blah, blah, blah of most of the posts, particularly in this section.
FrenchDrop
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Quote:
On 2012-01-22 19:05, BillMcCloskey wrote:
And if I made mention on your number of posts, you can do what you want certainly.

Thanks! Smile

Quote:
It is fun to talk about magic. But it is better to practice magic, read about magic, improve your routines and acts.

I agree that discussing magic with other magicians is fun -- but, for me, it's more than that. It's informative. It's genuinely useful. I suspect I'll feel that way until I believe I know more than any other magician I could conceivably discuss magic with -- and I don't think a day will ever come when I feel that way.

Seriously, Bill: I can understand that you have compelling personal reasons for believing that message boards are a waste of your time. If you don't feel you get anything worthwhile out of them, it makes absolute sense that you'd avoid them. But I think you need to speak for yourself and leave it at that. You can't know how much time anyone else on this board spends practicing, reading, performing, creating...so I don't think you should presume to say that anyone else is wasting whatever time he spends here.
"A great magician has said of his profession that its practitioners '… must pound and rack their brains to make the least learning go in, but quarrelling always comes very naturally to them.'” -- Susanna Clarke, Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell
Slide
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French,

Let me illustrate what I mean. I've spent the last few hours building a web site the will eventually house a record of every trick, effect, slight, book, DVD, magazine I own, all cross referenced and clickable. It will include my own transcriptions and notes of every book I own. I think eventually, this will be an amazing resource for me. It takes time to do that, but the value to me is inestimable.

Now let's look at the the drip drip drip of time. They say it takes 10,000 hours of diligent practice to become a master at something.

Let's imagine you have 2 hours a day to devote to magic. You sleep 8 hours, you work 8 hours, you have a personal life and if you can scrape together two solid hours of magic time in a day, I'd say you are doing pretty good.

Now let's look at the time taken up posting on this forum. I'll use your posts as an example but again, nothing against you, just to illustrate how much time it takes up.

Let's be generous and say each post represents 10 minutes: you have to logon, read the other posts, respond, maybe check out some books for sale, etc. But each post represents on average 10 minutes of your day. Let's do some rounding to make the math easier and for arguement sake lets say you posted 600 posts in a 3 month period. At 10 minutes a post, that is 6,000 minutes posting. Divide by 60 minutes and that is 100 hours of time taken up posting. At 2 hours a day, that is 50 days of your available 90 days over the last 3 months that are taken up with posting, or more than half your available magic hours are devoted to things like arguing if there should be a pledge or not and what that means, and responding to all the people who say that is foolish and all the people who think that people who say it is foolish, are foolish.

What could you do with that 50 days. Do you think that if you spent 50 out of 90 days prefecting your pass that that would be a good thing? how many great tricks do you think you could learn in that 50 days that instead you spent here?

Time drips drips drips away. and before you know it, they are nailing the coffin lid down and you still never created your OWN Triump, your own miracle. In the course of year those 50 days become 200 days. 200 days wasted out of a year posting innocuous things on this forum that could be spent building a routine, and act, a career.... a life.

And let me ask you, do you think Marlo, Vernon, anyone who you admire would be where they got to by wasting 200 days out of the year posting on magic forums?
FrenchDrop
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What can I say that I haven't already said, Bill? I don't believe it's for me to say what another magician's goals should be, let alone whether or not he's working with sufficient diligence toward those goals. I think it's okay if some magicians aren't trying to create the next Triumph. I think it's okay if some magicians don't aspire to be the next Marlo or Vernon. I think it's okay if some magicians merely want to learn a few great card tricks and do them really well for friends and family. I think magic as an art has room for magicians like that. And I think magic as a community needs people who treasure the social experience of discussing the art with other magicians.

And -- again -- I have no idea how much time anyone spends on practicing, reading, performing, etc. when he's not here on the Café. And -- regardless of how much speculative math you do -- neither do you.

That's none of my business. Neither is another magician's goals. (These things aren't your business, either, in my opinion -- but since I suggested you speak for yourself, I'll try and do the same. Smile)

This discussion seems to have evolved into a debate over whether or not discussion boards are a waste of time...which is a surreal debate to have via a discussion board. And I believe we're heading into a realm of diminishing returns, where we're just restating our positions in new ways with no hope of changing the other party's mind -- which really is a waste of time. I will say this: I strongly disagree with the practice of applying your own standards to a huge group of strangers with differing degrees of experience and widely varying goals.
"A great magician has said of his profession that its practitioners '… must pound and rack their brains to make the least learning go in, but quarrelling always comes very naturally to them.'” -- Susanna Clarke, Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell
Steven Youell
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Well since this is now a different subject, I think it's safe to comment. Smile

Bill,

Although I really do get your point, your logic in this post is a little flawed. Your entire argument is based on this premise:

Quote:
On 2012-01-22 22:03, BillMcCloskey wrote:
They say it takes 10,000 hours of diligent practice to become a master at something.

Who is "they"? What hard evidence is there to support this?

In face, if you practiced two hours a day, 365 days a year, it would take you over 150 years to master 12 Sleights:

(12*10000)= 120000 <number of hours to master 12 Sleights>
(2*365) = 730 hours of practice a year.
(120000/730) = 164 years.

Of course, if you practiced 8 hours a day, then you could master those 12 Sleights in about 40 years.

So I'm thinking that your premise is flawed. Or else no one really "masters" anything...

But you ARE right in that we all need to set priorities and then we need to take responsibility for our priorities.

While you may consider spending an inordinate amount of time posting here wasted hours, some don't. While you and I would consider spending time learning to deal perfect seconds, most humans would see that as a tremendous waste of time. So I don't necessarily think making posts here is a waste of time for everyone. But everyone should be aware of HOW they spend their time.

I regret having started this thread. Really. I did not have the foresight to see that it would result in exactly what I was trying to quell.

SEY
tomsk192
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Quote:
On 2012-01-20 13:08, FrenchDrop wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-01-20 04:12, tomsk192 wrote:
I understand Steven's motivation, and support it. However, [b]those acting as his Gestapo[b] really are the limit.

Godwin's law.

Godwin observed that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing it to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis.

There are many corollaries to Godwin's law, some considered more canonical (by being adopted by Godwin himself) than others. For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress.


Ah yes, Godwin's law. Of course if 'Stasi' or 'KGB' or 'MI5' or even 'CIA' were substituted, then Godwin's law would not apply. It makes perfect sense. Validated with one metaphor, mindless with another. Godwin's law. Philosophy for the Wiki generation.
Slide
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Steven,

The 10,000 hour rule was based on a book by Malcom Gladwell. Personlly I don't buy any of Malcom's theory's but it is a widely accepted and you can read his ideas on this in his latest book (but your are right: I find flaws with his theory).

The 10,000 hour rule is based on the time it takes to master a subject, not a part of the subject. So to be a master at magic, one would spend 10,000 hours on it (not on each sleight). Therefore, practing 2 hours a day, it should take you 13 year to be a master at magic. If however you send 200 days of those 2 hours posting on an online forum it will now take you 30 years to be a master at magic, not 13.

Blame Gladwell, not me. Smile
FrenchDrop
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Quote:
On 2012-01-22 22:56, tomsk192 wrote:
Ah yes, Godwin's law. Of course if 'Stasi' or 'KGB' or 'MI5' or even 'CIA' were substituted, then Godwin's law would not apply.

No, I think they'd still fit the spirit of the Law, if not the letter. Smile

I think Godwin's Law is really about the tendency toward absurd hyperbole in debates that go on long enough -- and the way such hyperbole tends to undermine the argument it was meant to bolster. (Hence the corollary that says, when the Nazis appear, the debate is over and whoever invoked the Nazis has lost.)
"A great magician has said of his profession that its practitioners '… must pound and rack their brains to make the least learning go in, but quarrelling always comes very naturally to them.'” -- Susanna Clarke, Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell
tomsk192
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Quote:
On 2012-01-22 23:01, FrenchDrop wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-01-22 22:56, tomsk192 wrote:
Ah yes, Godwin's law. Of course if 'Stasi' or 'KGB' or 'MI5' or even 'CIA' were substituted, then Godwin's law would not apply.

No, I think they'd still fit the spirit of the Law, if not the letter. Smile


I'm not sure I'd lump them all in together. Each to their own.
tomsk192
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Quote:
On 2012-01-22 23:01, FrenchDrop wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-01-22 22:56, tomsk192 wrote:
Ah yes, Godwin's law. Of course if 'Stasi' or 'KGB' or 'MI5' or even 'CIA' were substituted, then Godwin's law would not apply.

No, I think they'd still fit the spirit of the Law, if not the letter. Smile

I think Godwin's Law is really about the tendency toward absurd hyperbole in debates that go on long enough -- and the way such hyperbole tends to undermine the argument it was meant to bolster. (Hence the corollary that says, when the Nazis appear, the debate is over and whoever invoked the Nazis has lost.)


But it's facile. Tosh.
FrenchDrop
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Quote:
On 2012-01-22 23:01, BillMcCloskey wrote:
Steven,

The 10,000 hour rule was based on a book by Malcom Gladwell. Personlly I don't buy any of Malcom's theory's but it is a widely accepted and you can read his ideas on this in his latest book (but your are right: I find flaws with his theory).

The 10,000 hour rule is based on the time it takes to master a subject, not a part of the subject. So to be a master at magic, one would spend 10,000 hours on it (not on each sleight). Therefore, practing 2 hours a day, it should take you 13 year to be a master at magic. If however you send 200 days of those 2 hours posting on an online forum it will now take you 30 years to be a master at magic, not 13.

Blame Gladwell, not me. Smile

The problem with your argument is that it's based on your completely arbitrary notion that everyone only has two hours of free time a day to spend on any given pursuit -- and it's based on a 10,000-hour figure from a guy whose theories you yourself say you don't buy at all.

Honestly, I can't help thinking you could find better ways to spend your time than to doggedly defend a position based on theory you disagree with....
"A great magician has said of his profession that its practitioners '… must pound and rack their brains to make the least learning go in, but quarrelling always comes very naturally to them.'” -- Susanna Clarke, Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell
FrenchDrop
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Quote:
On 2012-01-22 23:17, tomsk192 wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-01-22 23:01, FrenchDrop wrote:
No, I think they'd still fit the spirit of the Law, if not the letter. Smile

I think Godwin's Law is really about the tendency toward absurd hyperbole in debates that go on long enough -- and the way such hyperbole tends to undermine the argument it was meant to bolster. (Hence the corollary that says, when the Nazis appear, the debate is over and whoever invoked the Nazis has lost.)


But it's facile. Tosh.

I disagree. I think there's a lot of simple truth behind it, as outlined above.
"A great magician has said of his profession that its practitioners '… must pound and rack their brains to make the least learning go in, but quarrelling always comes very naturally to them.'” -- Susanna Clarke, Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell
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