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VE Day New user LONDON, England, UK 94 Posts 
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On 2011-12-28 17:45, henri loik wrote: Yes they do. Usually every time a magic show is shown on television there is a lot of people search the Internet to find out how the magic is done and they often find some halfwit who has created a tutorial exposing the secret method on YouTube. Its no longer magic once they've seen that. Just a trick. I'm guessing people also do this when they see a live magic show too. That is why it is wrong to expose methods on the Internet, because all magic and magicians suffer, and the laymen/audiences suffer too as they have had the magic they have seen undermined and lost by someone showing them it was just a trick that fooled them. You are wrong to believe laymen don't search the internet for magic exposure videos. They do. |
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henri loik Regular user Near Chicago, Illinois 136 Posts
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Wow. I am surprised that people really take the time to do this.
Thanks for your advice and information everybody sorry for being annoying. |
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henri loik Regular user Near Chicago, Illinois 136 Posts
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While I may not be experienced enough to teach people magic I must say that while people may search for magic exposure I don't think they would find something like learned pig that only magicians know about. They would find videos that had the words "Secrets revealed" in them. I don't want to start another debate about this, but that is the kind of thing laymen find when they're looking for magic exposure. By the way, I am interested in how a laymen finds a trick. since magicians don't normally say the name of the trick they did, I don't think that laymen would look up " card that rises to the top of deck repeatedly after being put in the center of the deck REVEALED" after seeing ambitious card. Also if a laymen found a magic channel on accident I don't think they would stay to watch. I for one don't waste time watching every video that I accidentally stumble upon. A lot of magic tricks don't even have exposure videos for them!
Again, I don't want to start another argument. It's a shame that people think "How did he/she do that?" after seeing a trick instead of appreciating magic as art. it's too bad they would actually waste time looking for a video exposing a trick. I wonder if somebody could conduct a poll with thousands of laymen asking how many of them would google a method of how a magic trick was done after seeing one. 
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts
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Henri Loik, your above post just revealed everything to the internet. Every word has just gone out to your favorite search engine. You have now just revealed where to look and what to look for.
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JamesinLA Inner circle Los Angeles 3400 Posts
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After a show, some people will ask how a given trick is done. When this is a young person or I feel their interest is "sincere" I advise them to go the library and get a book on magic. At this point, 99 percent of their eyes glaze over and I know they will never pursue it. They were only after instant gratification. My rule of thumb is that if a person won't even go to the trouble to find and read a book, then they aren't really interested in magic and should not be given the secret. That is at least on level of a test of real interest. These videos, people will just happen across them as I did and bam. It's ruined for them and us as wisely stated above.
Jim
Oh, my friend we're older but no wiser, for in our hearts the dreams are still the same...
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DWRackley Inner circle Chattanooga, TN 1909 Posts
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On 2011-12-28 17:45, henri loik wrote: I don’t know where you‘ve been performing, but around here layman most certainly DO search the internet for information on magic; if you don’t ban electronic devices, they will Google your stuff WHILE they are sitting in your audience (It’s happened to me!). The electronic generation actually believes it is “their right†to know everything, just because. That’s the main reason for “new rulesâ€, which go far beyond “Don’t tell the secretâ€. Don’t even tell the NAME! With possibly hundreds of websites vying for business (some with lesser scruples than others), ALL of our tools need to be protected. On the Café you’ll see abbreviations like TT, IT, or ID. These aren’t being used because we’re too lazy to type!
...what if I could read your mind?
Chattanooga's Premier Mentalist Donatelli and Company at ChattanoogaPerformers.com also on FaceBook |
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sam2452 New user 99 Posts
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I bet henri loik is Dave J. Castle. We are talking to the right person. =)
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Alan Munro.jpg "View Profile") Inner circle Kentwood, Michigan, USA 5952 Posts
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On 2011-12-29 10:13, henri loik wrote: Considering that 29% of the U.S. population is mentally ill, it should come as no surprise. People vote for politicians who betray them. This is not a rational society. |
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henri loik Regular user Near Chicago, Illinois 136 Posts
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NO! I am not Dave castle.
As I said I am just a hobbyist. I wonder how we went from my question to me being dave. I have decided that you are all right ( except the one who said I was Dave) I am not experienced enough to make assumptions like what I said. I have to stop doing that. Even on the juggling forums! Sorry for being an annoying beginner. I guess by the standards of more experienced performers I am a beginner right? |
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts
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On 2011-12-29 16:47, henri loik wrote: Novice is more like it!! Try reading Tarbell to start with, you can get it on CD in PFD, if you can't afford the books. |
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Muzz Regular user 175 Posts
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Henri, my question to you is this. Why do you want to create such a channel for magicians? Clearly it isn't for the money so I can only assume it is to stroke your own ego. I am an amateur magician, I'd consider myself an intermediate card man, and I'm well aware that any tricks I have "created" are dependant on a great deal of other professional magicians who have created the sleights I use. If I did feel I had created anything original I would have to spend many hours researching the work of others to make sure someone hadn't got there before me. As someone only a year into their magic journey you should perhaps take extra care that your "new" moves are in fact as new as you believe them to be. We are, after all, standing on the shoulders of giants...
But back to my original question. What is your motivation for wanting to create these videos? |
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MagicDr Regular user Los Angeles, CA 111 Posts
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Amateur here:
Interesting discussion. I am not defending exposure (Castle is a ******), but when discussing the idea of NEVER revealing a secret, where is the line drawn? It seems the line is very thin and is easily crossed when the borders are unclear. The reason I say the borders are unclear is because books are technically exposing magic. If books reveal secrets, why is there a difference between exposure in a book and limited exposure on a website? I can easily buy Mark Wilson's course in magic for $20 and learn a mountain of secrets, or Expect at the Card Table on E Bay for $8 Again, I am not defending exposure; just trying to understand the distinctions. Can someone clarify? |
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Anatole Inner circle 1912 Posts
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You can see the "infamous" Camel cigarette ad exposing sawing a woman in two at
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1933-CAMEL-CIGAR......17491131 Unfortunately, you can't read the details of the exposure. If someone on the Café has a better copy of the ad, maybe they can scan it and post it. The important point to consider is: I don't think the Camel advertisement exposure did anything at all to destroy the enjoyment of audiences who saw the trick or the enjoyment of magicians who perform it. There are I think two reasons that exposure like this have minimal effect on magic. 1) The people who see exposures like this have a short attention/memory span and have forgotten it by the next day, and 2) The people who see it dismiss it because, "That's not the way real magicians do it." As for the distinction of "free" Internet exposure and exposure in books like _Expert at the Card Table_ or the Mark Wilson Course... A lay person is not likely to stumble upon either book by "surfing" a book store, and if they do, the book is closed and they have to go through the minimal effort of opening the book and reading parts of it. They have to buy the book to actually learn anything, and the act of buying the book indicates that their interest in learning magic is not a casual, accidental happenstance. LIkewise, the magic books in public libraries are usually shelved in the 793.8 section and it is unlikely that someone will discover them by accident. Professor Hoffman got a lot of flack originally about writing _Modern Magic_. Wasn't it originally serialized in a magazine for boys before being published as a book? There was also a discussion in the Café some months ago (or more) about the controversy over the Science and Mechanics _Magic Handbook_ that not only exposed the secrets of a great many magic tricks, but gave detailed plans for building small illusions. I was a beginner when I discovered the _Magic Handbook_ on the magazine shelves of a local drug store. I loved it and performed a lot of the tricks "exposed" in it. Even a book as seemingly harmless as Joseph Leeming's children's book _Fun with Magic_ contains some powerful effects in it, one of which I saw Del Ray perform for a group of magicians, most of whom were totally blown away by the trick. The publication of that trick in a children's book obviously didn't harm the sense of wonder of children who checked it out of the library, and magicians who read the book probably passed over the trick as something that either wouldn't fool or wouldn't impress anyone. (One of the old-time axioms of magic is: If you want to keep a secret, publish it in a book.) Please note that I'm not at all saying that we should flood the market with books for the lay public. I don't think publishers would fall for that anyway. It might be interesting to poll some of the top magicians of the past 25 years to see how many learned their first magic tricks from books that were written for the general public. I would guess it would be a high percentage. Poll magicians from the last 75 years and I think you'll find some who learned to b*ckp*lm a card from the little 50-cent Howard Thurston _Card Tricks_ book. ----- Amado "Sonny" Narvaez
----- Sonny Narvaez
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Anatole Inner circle 1912 Posts
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The December 1935 issue of _Popular Mechanics_ explains how to make your own sponge balls for a sponge ball routine. Interesting to note the name of the author...
http://books.google.com/books?id=x98DAAA......&f=false Then take a look at this webpage: http://archive.lib.msu.edu/DMC/tribune/t......5004.jpg ----- Amado "Sonny" Narvaez
----- Sonny Narvaez
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gary31525 Regular user Building a fence with 158 Posts
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On 2011-12-28 17:45, henri loik wrote: Before I became interested in magic, I saw a magician perform on America's Got Talent, immediately after seeing his performance I started Googling to find out how he did it, days later there were several websites revealing how he did his magic trick, all with slow motion video of his performance pointing out his flashes that wouldn't normally be seen. Oddly enough, that particular magic trick fueled my interest in magic and he is the reason I practice magic today. Personally, I will never expose a magic trick to a laymen, but I have no problems showing a fellow magician because magic isn't about making money for me, as it seems to be for so many here. Magic is about entertaining and creating a shroud of mystery to people. Are magicians so greedy that they aren't willing to teach others anything to improve their craft? If so, that's really sad! Don't misunderstand me though, I'm not going to pay good money to learn a trick just to give it away for free to another magician, there are limits / boundaries. |
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Muzz Regular user 175 Posts
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Gary you make a good point! The investment I have made in buying books, dvds etc is something that I should benefit from as should others who have made a similar investment. I too am happy to share routines with other magicians because I understand that this is a mutual thing. When you session with another magician you may explain secrets that you have paid good money for but likewise you will recieve similar secrets in return. Again I would want to question Henri's motivation for wanting to part with these secrets which, presumably, he has paid for in the first place.
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gary31525 Regular user Building a fence with 158 Posts
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On 2012-01-01 17:30, Muzz wrote: Exactly. |
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MagicDr Regular user Los Angeles, CA 111 Posts
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On 2012-01-01 15:02, Anatole wrote: That was my thought initially. When I first attended a SAM meeting, people were friendly towards me. They asked questions about how I got into magic, who influenced me, etc. While I appreciated their hospitality in an intimidating environment of professionals (and lil' ole' me, the amateur), I understood it was also about making sure I wasn't just a lookey loo looking to ascertain esoteric knowledge (is that what a layman would assume goes on at meetings?) If you draw the distinctions between exposure and a magic lesson being limited accessibility, wherein those that are truly interested will seek out the knowledge, then would it be exposure if the website would only be available to those that have proven themselves? An example of this format of information is the late Learned Pig Project. Many seemed to appreciate the accessibility for magicians while maintaining a screen for laymen While I am only assuming that The Learned Pig Project was generally an accepted medium of dissemination of magic, some of the comments above (not yours) indicate that ANY exposure of magic is frowned upon. In a hypothetical situation, suppose that the craft is freely disseminated within the magic community yet kept under wraps to lay audiences, it would be considered exposure per the ground rules set forth by wmhegbli The oath for SAM membership includes this addressing exposure, "...I agree not to expose any modus operandi from stage, platform, television, radio or in any manner whatsoever. I am opposed to cheap literature wherein magical secrets are needlessly exposed, or to the sale of professional magical effects in cheap miniature form to the public. I am opposed to needlessly and useless explanations of secrets to persons who are not entitled to know them or who are not interested in magic..." I understand that not everybody is a member of SAM (some may be of IBM or none), but I don't believe the oath far from what is generally accepted as magician's ethics. It would be incorrect to say that the intention of the passages are to prevent dissemination of magic. The passages are very specific to include provisions that prevent lay audiences from acquiring magic secrets, not magicians. That is why the sentences end with the "to the public" The vibe I get when discussing "exposure" with other seems to revolve more around economic implications, such as, "whose trick is it and how much money did they lose on sales due to exposure?". There's an underlying irony since it seems like asking for money in exchange for secrets is not cheapening the art, but giving away secrets to interested persons is |
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Hugh Entwistle Regular user 177 Posts
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Some magicians expose secrets on youtube to "raise" the standard of magic, but it in fact just makes it worse as you then see some 12 yr old showing magic, revealing every move just because his mum bought him a magic dvd and it was too difficult for him so he just puts it on youtube.
What is even more sad is the guy revealing tricks with gimmicks??? Whats the point? He keeps on saying, purchase this vanishing cane - this is how it works? When you purchase the bloody thing it comes with instructions? No benefit comes from these videos whatsoever apart from a massive dislike and disapproval from the magic society of magicians who actually make money performing these tricks on a regular basis. Magic is dying out, I regret to say... |
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Muzz Regular user 175 Posts
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Hugh, most of the time these exposure videos seem to have no desire to raise the standard of the art. I do not believe that kids you see posting exposure videos spend any time at all thinking "this will benefit the art of magic", instead, I believe, most of the time it is an ego trip in a "so you don't know how it's done? Oh, ok then, I'll tell you as I have superior knowledge" way. You may be right that "some" magicians do exposure videos to raise the standard of the art but overall I feel that is a cop-out. There are other ways to raise the standard - instead of posting exposure of old moves, post displays of new skills and tricks that will inspire others to work hard in this craft that we love so much!
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Posted: Dec 29, 2011 12:12 am 
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