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kambiz Inner circle Perth, down by the cool of the pool 1129 Posts |
Hi guys, if you have not seen the first part of this topic, please go here first (and provide me with a response, I would be very very grateful for your efforts and time )
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......um=15&18 For those who want to know the second component of this excercise, please read on...... I want you to read the following passage, allow your senses to absorb and feel the situation being described as genuinely real, then close your eyes, internalize the situation a little more and answer the question that follows. Some parts may not appeal to your rational, scientific minds, but please try to play along with this IMAGINATION exercise. Thanks for your time The year is 2013, and a research laboratory at the University of Western Australia has discovered a brand new element in the atomic table. They have discovered this atom exists in large quantities within only one cell in the right ventricle of the heart of every human being they have tested, and they have so far tested just over 4300 individual hearts, and it is present in all of them. The testing has been ongoing for the past 15 years, in that scientists are also monitoring what the nature of this atomic element is and its role in our lives and what happens to it after death. It has been discovered that the atoms within this cell are directly influenced by the amount of morality we practice. It was noted that this must be practiced morality, and the act of striving to enhance the moral qualities we put into action on a daily basis. Practicing noble and virtuous deeds releases chemicals within our bodies which have NO OTHER PURPOSE than to enhance the multiplication of the atoms within the one cell in the heart. The atoms within this cell are also resposible for our consciousness (when the cell is touched, the person instantly dies), and it has been ascertained without doubt that when we die, the atoms continue to survive, and the connection that these atoms develop between each other while the human is alive, are maintained and established further as soon as the rest of the body dies and begins to decompose. The consciousness is expanded further and further with time, and although the nature of this consciousness is unknown, it has been discovered that the symbiology and connection between these atoms is maintained even up to 14 years after the rest of the body has died. What the conscious individual is experiencing through these atomic connections, after physical death, is still under intense scrutiny and study, however it is undeniably proven that the component of our body that is solely responsible for our consciousness continues to progress and develop connections after death. My question to you now is this. How does this reality change the way you live your life? Please re-read the details of this scenario and outline some of the steps that you will take today. How does this affect you as an atheist, as a Christian etc etc? Thanks for your help guys Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break. .....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay! |
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Garrette Special user 926 Posts |
It would likely not change my behavior much at all, but I could be wrong. For me to really answer, though, you would have to define "noble and virtuous deeds."
I'm not being difficult; it is central to your question. |
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kambiz Inner circle Perth, down by the cool of the pool 1129 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-12-28 23:42, Garrette wrote: Thanks Garrette, maybe your response to this scenario would be to discover the definition of what it means to have a virtuous or noble character. That it in itself would be your first step. Is that a sensible response to your question? Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break. .....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay! |
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Scott Burton Inner circle 1131 Posts |
I see no way in which I would change. Your imaginary scenario is interesting but I can't see how I would change how I live.
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kambiz Inner circle Perth, down by the cool of the pool 1129 Posts |
Thanks Scott, appreciate your time to respond
Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break. .....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay! |
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JohnWells Inner circle The Southern Wild 1791 Posts |
Again, the question is essentially meaningless. I realize it's an imagination exercise, but scenarios that literally cannot exist cannot, properly speaking, be visualised or truly imagined. We can string the words together, but no more. Assuming that such an atom were discovered (possible), science cannot reach conclusions on qualitative, value based data. Science has nothing to say on morality. Nor has it much to say on consciousness. Science cannot even define consciousness.
It could measure the continued existence of the atom, which is no surprise; just because we die, the underlying bricks don't cease to exist. But there is no known way to interact with a continuing consciousness. There is no apparatus for the consciousness to operate unless you propose a structure like the soul which science can't address either. I'm being a little harsh, but I think you are confusing the nature of scientific versus philosophical questions, and that is a tremendous disservice to both. You seem to be attempting to bridge a gap between materialistic and non-materialistic views of the world by making science something it isn't. Treating several fundamental questions of genuine importance as a visualization game trivializes them, and that bothers me. But, to play along... The only way for this to work would be for the noble and good acts to trigger a somatic, biological response. The problem there being a schizophrenic who is certain that God's will is to murder his parents would get as many molecules as a nun feeding the poor. Even assuming a continuity of consciousness, there is nothing in your schema of a better afterlife. Presumably the schizophrenic consciousness would remain bat-sh!t crazy. And, since he has no body or brain, he couldn't do anything. No thinking or imagining or playing or eating. Just sit there being nuts and being conscious. Conclusion, there's an afterlife, but it's hell. The rational choice would be to have as little consciousness as possible since our consciousness is mediated through the body and we won't have one. I'd be a serial killer I think. egt as few of those molecules as possible. But, what if I feel sorry for killing someone. Repentance is a morally good act, so I guess that gets me molecules. That means I have more consciousness of my lack of a body and my lack of an ability to operate any of my faculties. In other words, unless I'm a total sociopath, I end up in my own privatye hell. That's why your idea bothers me. If I accept your argument, hell is the inevitable result. The attempt to bridge the gap between materialism and naturalism is not science, but philosophy. When science attempts to answer non-scientific questions, things always end badly. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Noble and virtuous deeds? I would want to understand how/why cells can interpret what makes a deed noble and virtuous...especially as how morals and ethics not only change over the years, but are hugely different dependent on where you are born, what religion you are born into, and how you choose to see life...
so how do these cells understand and process our ethical and moral state? and what can these cells do for 14 years, other than multiply? glass is a slowly moving liquid, yet I wouldnt want to take a bath in it...
I've asked to be banned
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Hummm... Strange question as it borders on both science and philosophy, all at once.
Atoms in your heart cells influenced by morality? I guess I'd do more cardio exercises while doing good. I'd take part in lots of Charity Marathons...
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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kambiz Inner circle Perth, down by the cool of the pool 1129 Posts |
John I'm just about to PM you
For all others who may wish to contribute to this thread (and please do) may I ask that you not get too analytical with the premise of the exercise? All that needs to be done is that science has somehow discovered an afterlife (and it's a good one, depending on how well you develop your molecules) and how you imagine you would conduct your life based on this new found reality. I would consider the development of this afterlife molecule in direct parallel and analogous to the development of your arms, legs, eyes and ears in the world of the womb. Life is better when you enter this world, but it would be harder should you not develop those physical features correctly. In a like manner, your molecular development is proportional to the quality of life you have in this subsequent realm of existence after this one Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break. .....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay! |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-12-29 07:21, kambiz wrote: I'd conduct my life according to my own morality. I'd do what I think is moral and good. Unless in this scenario there comes a Prophet. Does there come a Prophet?
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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JohnWells Inner circle The Southern Wild 1791 Posts |
Kam, to answer the question one must understand it. The question as posed redefines some of the words it uses, "science" in particular. The things you are asking of science in your question are outside its scope. You mean something different by the word "science" than the rest of the world as it is presented in your experiment. That makes it difficult to answer when I have to replace the word "science" with "science as redefined for purposes of this question". mMore to the point, I think you're screwing your data by asking the question this way. The sorts of people who will only be convinced by science, will not be able to address your question for the reasons stated.
I would ask three questions: 1. If you do not believe in an afterlife, would you change your views given adequate proof? 2. What would that sort of proof look like? What are the necessary conditions for your changing your belief? 3. How would your behavior change as a result of belief in an afterlife if the morality of your acts determined the quality of your continued existence? |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-12-29 07:42, JohnWells wrote: Define "morality" please.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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JohnWells Inner circle The Southern Wild 1791 Posts |
That's a vexed question. For purposes of the experiment, it would be those behaviors that build up the special atoms in the heart. In classical moral theory, it is a good act, done in a good way, for a good reason. The question does not address whether these atoms respond to a divinely revealed morality or to the natural law, or merely, as I suggest, to cetain chemicals released when we perform an act we genuinely perceive as moral. It's a massive philosophical debate, so I assume kam's intention is that each participant define morality for him/her/it-self.
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kambiz Inner circle Perth, down by the cool of the pool 1129 Posts |
.....or would it be reasonable, with this knowledge at hand, to search for what would constitute morality? There is no limits to the perfections one can acquire in terms of moral conduct, so the search for its true meaning in itself is an act which causes a positive response in the molecule....
Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break. .....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay! |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-12-29 07:52, JohnWells wrote: What about people who justify killing others in the name of their deity (against apostates for instance) and they genuinely perceive it as good morals? If their "certain chemicals are released when they perform an act they genuinely perceive as moral", then I put to you that EVERYONE, so long as they "perform an act they genuinely perceive as moral", will have a good "afterlife". By that logic, even Hitler would have a good afterlife, as he "performed an act he genuinely perceived as moral". Shouldn't there be a judge as to what is "morality" here? Hence my question about a Prophet coming to our midst... Or is the Giant Spaghetti Monster coming down Itself to tell us?
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Ok, I think what would happen is - certain tribes/units/consortiums/religion based groups would all put forward their version of what good morals/ethics were...and that we should all follow them, and not the rest... some who want to absolve themselves of personal choice would pick one...others would want proof that what they are saying is true...others will require more scientific proof for them to back up their claims...
sooooooooooooooo.... life would be pretty much as it is now...and I would steer clear of any one or anything that is so insecure that it requires worship...and I'll just go about my business doing what I thought was best for me...as I do now...
I've asked to be banned
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JohnWells Inner circle The Southern Wild 1791 Posts |
Exactly. That's one of my issues with the question. Either it assumes an objective morality, which then presents with the classical dilema of Plato's Euthryphro, or it is a purely subjective morality where, yes, Hitler goes to heaven. The very fact that the idea of hitler getting as nice an afterlife as Mother Teresa gives most people the screaming heebie jeebies, is suggestive...
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-12-29 08:11, JohnWells wrote: I agree.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
And lets not even mention Hitchens and his videos on Teresa!
can Kam say further, in so far as what these cells can do after the brain and body has died/perished... what are these cells capable of actually doing, other than surviving?
I've asked to be banned
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-12-29 08:10, IAIN wrote: Yep, pretty much as it is now...
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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