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Mad Jake
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Congratulations Bill! Can't wait to see the Museum in a few weeks Smile
For quality Paul Fox Cups spun on Danny Dew's Paul Fox tooling visit us at www.airshipmagic.com
Mike McErlain
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Great news, Bill! Looking forward to seeing the new additions!
Bill Palmer
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So am I! Smile
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fortasse
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Couldn't have gone to a better home. Well done, Bill.

Sean
Bill Palmer
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Thanks!
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pepka
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Congrats Bill! Let us know when they're on the museum site. I find it hilarious that you were able to correctly identify the cups. Sounds like you should get a consultant fee anytime they have a set of cups.
Bill Palmer
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I'm not sure why Gabe didn't contact me first. It could have been that he didn't want to intrude. I wouldn't have minded at all, really.

I wouldn't even ask for a fee. I do know who he asked first, and the fellow should have known what he was talking about.
"The Swatter"

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Mad Jake
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Bill, how long did the auction last?
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Bill Palmer
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I don't know. I went off-line when I got what I'd come for.

A lot of people didn't really understand what that set of cups in lot 133 actually was.

Think about this -- within the past 12 months, I have reached two of my goals.

1) to have a set of the original (pre Danny Dew) Paul Fox cups.

2) to have a set of cups that was owned by Dai Vernon.

Granted, it would have been nice to get that set of silver cups that Bill Taylor has. But I don't mind it at all that he got them.
"The Swatter"

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Tom Fenton
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Many congratulations on your new acquisitions Bill.
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cava
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Congrattulations Bill!!!

BTW, any relationship between lot 133 and the set recently sold on eBay ?? also labelled as "Stanley/Vernon" with some details in the description.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/STANLEY-VERNON-C......90f5014c


I see the obvious difference in the bids desing ....
francisngkl
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According to the descriptions, lot 133 was made by Joe Porper specially for Dai Vernon's use, the one on eBay was made by Harry Stanley, one of the some sold during Dai Vernon's British tour. This particular set was part of John Fisher's collection.
Francis
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rmendez
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Wow! I'm sorry I missed this until I realized whom I would have been bidding against Smile Congratulations Bill. We were visiting and performing close-up in the bars with Mark Teufel and his wife Lorraine at the world famous Magic Castle for the very first time last week. They are amongst the warmest and friendliest people we've ever met.

Posted: Feb 1, 2012 2:06pm
I'd love to see pictures of what you acquired! Particularly the Larry Jennings Chop Cup! I hope this message finds you in the best of health and spirits!
Powermagic
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Right Bil, SOMeONE has to pay for it and IT IS THE SELLER. The b@L@s of sellers asking the person they want to buy stuff from to flip 1/2 the bill. Try that on the Café or ebay and see how far you get.
Potter and Potter did not impress me. I bought the P&L lota and am disappointed.
First as a good buyer, I contacted there "expert" and asked if the bowl had any dents or if it leaked. A quick response came back that the bowl was in great shape, no dents or leaks. The photo in the auction and the "wear to finish" left some doubt but here, Gabe states all is good.

Second I asked what the shipping would be since their online shipping calculator came up with a whopping $200 to ship the bowl. )(which is under 2 lbs)
Once again I prompt response from the expert stated it would be about $20. Verifying the location address with insurance I came up with that same figure as well.

I also asked how he knew this bowl came from circa 1939. These bowls were made through the 1960s. He responded, yes correct there was no way to know. So I think it is misleading to say circa 1939 when most likely he bought this bowl in the 50s. My point is, an honest representation would not be to exaggerate the age without proof and set the range or not list it at all.

So with the facts in place I was ready to set my max bid for the bowl. I was not buying the bowl because Larry Jennings owns it. I have and use the same bowl and wanted to have a spare. There starting price was worth a shot and I know what I paid for the one on ebay (which BTW ebay sellers do much better with photos than Potter and Potter. The one for this bowl on the auction site was pretty bad and did not show any detail .)

Come auction day, I had a show so put in an auto bid. Lots really do move fast so they got to the lot before I finsished the show and I won.

The invoice arrived email two days later and come to find they now want $25 shipping. When questioned he states "I said ABOUT $20.) I responded that if he though it wold be more he should have stated "ABOUT $25 or less".
This company must make a huge profit since they pass the costs to everyone.
I pointed out his quote in the email and he said if I could send to a business address or use the USPS. I pointed out the cost with insurance for Priorty mail, allowed for 3 extra lbs and packing supplies and still came under $20, And that was retail. These guys surely get discounts for shipping and buy packing in bulk.
It is my personal feeling they were padding the shipping as well.
In the end he agreed to the $20 but still sent it Fed X so really Fed X was not the issue then.

I asked about not paying credit card to help save them the fees but he said they charge 2.5% for credit cards.
Holy moly these guys are all pure profit. They do not pay for anything. Imagine what you would do if you went to the store today and wanted to swipe yoru card but had a 2.5% transaction fee on top of it. You would not use the card. So I did not had mailed the check. I tell you, they have some big ones over there at Potter and Potter. I guess they figure you want this stuff so you will pay for all their costs as well. BUt they pad this 2.5% 2.5% is what I, a non store front business pays to take credit cards. A business like Potter and Potter is established and gets a far better rate than I can get.

The bowl arrived yesterday, Packing was MINIMAL. A P&L bowl is soft copper < the bowl came in a cloth bag with 1/4 box of packing peaunts. I expected bubble wrap.
But the contents were fine it was what I saw next that really disappointed me in the Potter and Potter ethics.

The bowl was dented in SEVERAL places. One spot on the seam, one noticable dimple on the top half. After wiping off something like crystalized mold, which you kind of see in the photo on the top, there were two other dents, One small one and one longer one.
There was one deeper scratch on the side near the seam that almost looked like a crack but just seems like short deep scratch. I will let the minor oxidized areas and smaller scratches go since they put "wear to finish" but since I had specifically asked about the bowls condtion, this is not acceptible business practices.

I dobut he even went to look at the bowl and I can tell he never tested the bowl for leaks. Luckily it appears to be working fine.

I emailed this expert asking why he did not disclose the dents and that I was disappointed. His response was throwing the as is policy in my face but said if I want to send it back he would refund. I suspect he knows his comments about conditon override their policy as the auction was mirepresnted.
I know it will cost me $20 to return . I bought the bowl knowing what they are worth based on no dents. To return is either going to cost me $20 or $40. If he will not also refund the org shipping, I am out $40. Otherwise I am out time and $20.

I asked again why he didn ot tell me there were some dents in it and stated what he did and he avoided the question just saying I could return it. I asked for some of the buyer fee back to save them some agravation and adjust for the diminished value and he said to return it if I wanted.


Over all, I do not like Potter and Potter and for me to use them again, I would really want the item or think it was under valued. I did all I could short of flying from the North East to Chicago. I had to trust the experts answers and was basically lied to with no remorse. At least he could have owned up to the fact he never checked the bowl when I asked him the condtion.

(ANd please do not say they ahve allot of items and do not look over all of them in detail. Sorry, that is their job and what they are collecting all these fees for. So I do not feel they had earned their fees)

Now I have to discover how much value has changed. The damge is not horrible but it is there I am still trying to determine if the laquer is mostly intact. It seems to be which is rare. I need to discover if the bag is original. I heard these came in bags but thought they were blue. The other one I came with a blue bag of the exact same shape and dimensions but differet sewing method. I assume P&L might have changed fabrics and styles over the years and that also might help date the bowl if I can find anyone that sold these and recalls.

I would also like to know if Larry Jennings ever used the bowl. Did he have a routine with this bowl or was it just a prop he admired?
Quote:
On 2012-01-29 00:40, Bill Palmer wrote:


I should also add that the house does more than just market the items. In some cases, Potter and Potter have rented a hall at their expense, because they didn't have a place to hold the expected crowd. They photograph all the items. They publish a catalog. None of this is free. Some of the bidders pay for the catalog. If you are a frequent bidder, you may find one in your mailbox. They also, in many cases, travel to the location of the items being auctioned and bring them back to Chicago at their own expense. They also have to pay for the extra phone lines they use for the auction.

Someone has to pay for it.
Bill Palmer
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@cava: Those cups from magicinvestments were some of the cups that Harry Stanley had Burtini spin for the Dai Vernon tour. Hence the name Stanley/Vernon cups.

@Powermagic: The catalog plainly states the following:

The Collection of the Cardwright
Larry Jennings

Including Apparatus, Books and Ephemera
Together with other property from selected consignors

If you look through the online copy of the catalog, you will see that all of the lots after 171 are in a section called "other property." So it probably wasn't from his collection at all. That was fairly obvious to me when I read the catalog.

The items from 150 - 171 are from Bruce Cervon. That's also made clear in the catalog.

If you misread the catalog, that's your fault, and nobody else's. If you don't like the way Gabe does business, then don't do business with him. BTW, I could see some of the damage in the photo of the lota in the online auction.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

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cava
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Thanks francisngkl and Bill for your comments regarding my question.
Powermagic
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Bill I do not understand your comments. I did not have a catalog to read. I was searching for a lota and google brought me to the auction, I read the auction for the item I wanted and spoke to the so called expert about the product I was considering buying . Now explain to me why being lied to is my fault? I was lied to about the condition both by the expert and photo.

You have the audacity to say "If I do not like the way Gabe does business..." Well sir, I have never used this company before so HOW, would I know how Gabe operates if I did not buy anything? Do not be silly Mr. Palmer. I shared my factual account of how it went. No Bill, you can not NOT see the damage in the photo. Not in the photo on line. You can see some wear to the finish and a few oxidized spots but those are not the dents.
Bill I have the bowl in front of me. The photo is not a good one. First off this bowl has the color of a P&L bowl, nice golden color. The brown bits on top were not, They were like a white crystallized mold that washed off.
The auction photo is so bad it makes it look like the bowl is stripped of the finish.

Gabe CLEARLY stated there were NO DENTS. Do you want me to send you his email to me? When you tell me know dents it means NO DENTS.

How dare you try to defend them when I have the bowl and have dents and an impact on the seam? If there were photos of the damage that would be another story. I see better photos on ebay.

So Mr. Palmer tell me how this was my fault? As I said, I did not care who's items these were. I only asked if Jennings used the bowl since I did not know the history. I could care less who was selling it but I would expect if the expert says the bowl has been tested for leaks and has no dents that is what to expect. The truth is by how the interior was dirty and had not seen water in a long time from what I can tell and there were dents.

I am talking to a popular dealer and antique magic and he said the value is greatly decreased by ANY damage. Now Bill you know this. You know that your max bid is determined by the disclosed damage. YOU did not go to the auction either So you relied on the photos you saw as well. If you saw damage after you got it, you wold be disappointed as well. But for you , you were not buying the cups for what they were but for who owned them. I was not buying the bowl for who owned the but for the bowl.

But I might have taking off some of my max bid if I was made aware of the damage. Why lie about the condition when SPECIFICALLY ASKED Gabe? He would have scored points if he just admitted he did not really go check the bowl out when he said there were no dents. At least I would give them come credit for owning up to the mistake.

SO I shared my experience with Potter and Potter since they did not disclose the condition and tried backing out of the shipping quote.
I will tell you, if I did not have these letters in writing, they would have said I was out of luck.
Right now I am trying to determine how much loss in value the bowl is to see if it is worth returning. I wanted a spare bowl but know someday I will probably resell one of them if I stop using it .

Why not just return it? Because he want me to pay for the return shipping. I do not belive and being penalized for a company's product misrepresentation.

But yes, after this experience of misrepresenting things, I will most likely not use Potter and Potter ever again and by reading this others will know to press them more than a couple emails about condition and to get all things in writing.

There was no excuse and no defense for misrepresenting the product and shipping.

Quote:

On 2012-02-10 02:07, Bill Palmer wrote:
@cava: Those cups from magicinvestments were some of the cups that Harry Stanley had Burtini spin for the Dai Vernon tour. Hence the name Stanley/Vernon cups.

@Powermagic: The catalog plainly states the following:

The Collection of the Cardwright
Larry Jennings

Including Apparatus, Books and Ephemera
Together with other property from selected consignors

If you look through the online copy of the catalog, you will see that all of the lots after 171 are in a section called "other property." So it probably wasn't from his collection at all. That was fairly obvious to me when I read the catalog.

The items from 150 - 171 are from Bruce Cervon. That's also made clear in the catalog.

If you misread the catalog, that's your fault, and nobody else's. If you don't like the way Gabe does business, then don't do business with him. BTW, I could see some of the damage in the photo of the lota in the online auction.
Bill Palmer
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All of the information is in the on-line version of the catalog, which is available as a download from the Potter and Potter site. In fact, I checked what I posted by going to the on-line catalog, not the hard copy catalog that I received a couple of weeks after the on-line version was published.

Go to http://www.potterauctions.com . That's their main web site. They ALWAYS post their most current catalog on that page. Click on the link in the menu bar that says "catalog." This will take you to a window where you can order the catalog. However, if you look to the right of the photo of the catalog, you will see the following paragraph.

Quote:
Catalogs for our January 28, 2012 auction of
the collection of Larry Jennings
are now available for purchase. The digital edition is
now available as well.


On the web site, the phrase "is now available" is a link. Click on it, and you will find the catalog. You will also find links to all previous catalogs.

As far as the photo of the lota is concerned, I'm going by the photo that is on the live auction site. I could see that the finish on this lota was in bad shape, as well as the existence of some damage to the joint in the lota. I wouldn't have bid on it, considering how common these are and how often they show up at auction.

If Gabe misled you as to the condition of the lota, then you should settle that with him. I've dealt with Gabe for a long time, and anytime there was a problem with a lot, he took care of the problem.

As far as an analysis of how Gabe does business, you can ask around. You obviously haven't done much serious bidding at major auctions. Gabe is much easier to deal with than Swann or Bloomsbury. When you get into this league, you are playing against people who are looking for very specific material, and often they are prepared to pay very high prices just for the provenance of an item.

At a recent Bloomsbury auction, the collection of Bob Read was sold. Items in that collection went for prices that were all over the place. I got a shipment of 7 crates of Bob's close-up material. The listing was sketchy. Before I bid on it, I called the folks at Bloomsbury to get a rough idea what was in there. The really hadn't a clue. None of them are magicians. It cost me almost as much to have it shipped over here as it did to buy it. But there were about a half dozen sets of cups and shell games in that lot that were not documented, as well as one of Bob's top hats.

I took a big risk and it paid off. But I knew what the risk was before I did any bidding. There was other stuff I got that really wasn't worth it. But, again, I knew the risks. If you are looking for pieces to perform with, don't buy them unless you can look at them first.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

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lint
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Pictures bill!
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
Powermagic
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No matter what you THINK you see in the photo Bill you have no idea what you are looking at.
You have admitted yourself that you have gotten bad lots.
I can only share MY Experience. In my experience, I was lied to. I have emails the condition was fine. If it were not for the dents, I would have had a great find since the finish is 95% better than what you see in the photo. Most of the finish issuesyou see was surface dirt. the bowl is that P&L gold with 95% of the finish intact.

This all comes down to the fact that what was stated by their expert turned out to be a lie. When I was given an answer the expert did not look at the bowl and never tested it for leaks. He messed up for sure, but is afraid to admit his guilt.

Too many issues from how they dated the bowl to photograph are wrong with Potter and Potter. but to be told in writing the bowl was free of dents when it has them, is just unproffessional. Bill Gabe is a man he holds to a higher standard. If so, there was no reason to misrepresent the item. He should just be honest and state he does not have a clue or as the time to check into it.
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