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irossall
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Quote:
On 2012-01-20 09:41, Duaut wrote:
@irossall
loaning and theft are 2 different things, your comment was way out of context and is totally wrong.
not a very good try to sound humor

@gdw - it's not sharing it's blatant theft, no matter how you try to twist it to suit your viewpoint.

wafj!


Out of Context?
If I download a song and listen to it one time, then delete the file, did I steal the file or did I just borrow the file?
If I borrow a CD from the Library and copy a song off the CD, then return the CD, didn't I steal the song? Why is it that the Library is not responsible for letting me have the CD in the first place? Maybe the Libraries should only be allowed to have patrons listen to the CD's in the Library and not take them home, where I can copy them or loan them to other's.

I think this is more about controling the Internet than anything else. If it wasn't for the Internet I never would have heard about H.R. Bill 1540. Information can be very dangerous for a Government trying to control the masses.
Iven Smile
Give the gift of Life, Be an Organ Donor.
acesover
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Quote:
On 2012-01-20 08:32, irossall wrote:
I am waiting for my local public Library to get busted. Anyone with a Library card (free) can take home many different books, CD's and DVD's without any money changing hands and no money going to the Artist's and Author's of these properties.
I often loan my DVD's and Books to Family and Friends. I guess I should be thrown in Jail or fined as well.
Iven Smile


Only if you know they are making copoies of them. If so then yes you should be as you say thrown in jail and fined.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On 2012-01-20 09:18, gdw wrote:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 2012-01-20 08:32, irossall wrote:
I am waiting for my local public Library to get busted. Anyone with a Library card (free) can take home many different books, CD's and DVD's without any money changing hands and no money going to the Artist's and Author's of these properties.
I often loan my DVD's and Books to Family and Friends. I guess I should be thrown in Jail or fined as well.
Iven


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Are you inferring that we should only have laws that are in violation of certain things such as murder and rape, but not lets say robbery as it is not as serious as the first two. Should we ban all traffic laws beause they are not that necessary?

Forgot to ask. Who in your world will make the decisions as to what laws we should and should not have? Oh but wait the only laws we need in your world are the ones that are involved in serious crime. Absolutely. You are a bigger threat than all terrorists combined.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
Tom Cutts
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Quote:
On 2012-01-20 11:19, irossall wrote:
If I download a song and listen to it one time, then delete the file, did I steal the file or did I just borrow the file?
If I borrow a CD from the Library and copy a song off the CD, then return the CD, didn't I steal the song? Why is it that the Library is not responsible for letting me have the CD in the first place?
I think you know in both cases (assuming the download was not paid for and is copyrighted) that YOU created an unauthorized duplicate. The difference between a library and a torrent site is you can't "borrow" anything from a torrent. You can only duplicate. That is the site's purpose. It exists to facilitate a criminal act and to profit off that.
acesover
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Quote:
On 2012-01-20 11:19, irossall wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-01-20 09:41, Duaut wrote:
@irossall
loaning and theft are 2 different things, your comment was way out of context and is totally wrong.
not a very good try to sound humor

@gdw - it's not sharing it's blatant theft, no matter how you try to twist it to suit your viewpoint.

wafj!


Out of Context?
If I download a song and listen to it one time, then delete the file, did I steal the file or did I just borrow the file?
If I borrow a CD from the Library and copy a song off the CD, then return the CD, didn't I steal the song? Why is it that the Library is not responsible for letting me have the CD in the first place? Maybe the Libraries should only be allowed to have patrons listen to the CD's in the Library and not take them home, where I can copy them or loan them to other's.

I think this is more about controling the Internet than anything else. If it wasn't for the Internet I never would have heard about H.R. Bill 1540. Information can be very dangerous for a Government trying to control the masses.
Iven Smile


Sounds to me like you are more concerned about libraries then the issue here.

To answer your quetion. "If I download a song and listen to it one time, then delete the file, did I steal the file or did I just borrow the file?"
If you are not in poscession of a legal copy of the file when youi listen to it, yes you stole it. Why is that so hard to understand?

Also your logic is flawed because when copying it from the internet you are breaking the law as soon as you do so as you never had a legal copoy in the first place. I assume your library has legal CD's books, etc.

Now that we know how you feel I think it is time you turn over your library cards.. You have the right to an attorney... Smile

You ask: Why is it that the Library is not responsible for letting me have the CD in the first place?

Answer: Well they obviously believe you ae an honest person and are innocent until proven guilty. They do not think you are the kind of person who would actually take a legal copy of something and produce illegal ones and pass them off to others or knowingly let others make illegal copies of the ones you borrowed. You would not do that would you? Smile
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
stoneunhinged
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This thread makes me wonder whether anyone other than myself uses a filesharing site for entirely legal purposes.

I do so regularly.

First, on a personal basis, I have very large collections of vacation photos and videos which I make available in their entirety to family members in their raw form. I don't know if my family members have actually ever used them. Smile I think that mostly they just look at the smaller, edited versions I upload to Facebook. Still, should one of my family members want to watch last years Christmas video, they can go to the filesharing site which I chose to upload them to.

Second, each semester I need to distribute files to students which are slightly larger than what I can use to university servers to distribute. I am currently restricted to a 60MB large folder per class offered. I have a small library of recordings--either made by myself or made by people who have given me permission to distribute--for the purpose of practicing pronunciation and phonetic transcription--which is significantly larger than that limit. So at the beginning of the semester I upload the files to a third party (I won't say which one) and post the link. Since I'm a cheapskate (and since I PO's me that the university doesn't provide a similar service to me for free), I don't pay for the service but use the good-for-thirty-days option.

It's entirely free, entirely legal, and extremely useful.

I have no problem with attempts to police the distribution of pirated material. But law authorities need to put a bit more thought into how to do that. Baby with the bathwater and all that.
acesover
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Makes no difference anyway: Congress withdraws SOPA, PIPA anti-piracy measures
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
mastermindreader
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The fact is that megaupload was being used, with the full knowledge and complicity of its owners, for the primary purpose of illegally distributing copyrighted materials.

Question for you Glen- I write an eBook and release it for sale. The very next day a purchaser uploads it to a torrent site. Are you saying this is simply sharing and not a criminal violation of copyright law?

I get the impression that there are those here who think that sort of behavior is fine.
acesover
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Quote:
On 2012-01-20 12:09, stoneunhinged wrote:
This thread makes me wonder whether anyone other than myself uses a filesharing site for entirely legal purposes.

I do so regularly.

First, on a personal basis, I have very large collections of vacation photos and videos which I make available in their entirety to family members in their raw form. I don't know if my family members have actually ever used them. Smile I think that mostly they just look at the smaller, edited versions I upload to Facebook. Still, should one of my family members want to watch last years Christmas video, they can go to the filesharing site which I chose to upload them to.

Second, each semester I need to distribute files to students which are slightly larger than what I can use to university servers to distribute. I am currently restricted to a 60MB large folder per class offered. I have a small library of recordings--either made by myself or made by people who have given me permission to distribute--for the purpose of practicing pronunciation and phonetic transcription--which is significantly larger than that limit. So at the beginning of the semester I upload the files to a third party (I won't say which one) and post the link. Since I'm a cheapskate (and since I PO's me that the university doesn't provide a similar service to me for free), I don't pay for the service but use the good-for-thirty-days option.

It's entirely free, entirely legal, and extremely useful.

I have no problem with attempts to police the distribution of pirated material. But law authorities need to put a bit more thought into how to do that. Baby with the bathwater and all that.


I am just curious. Why would you not let us know which third party you uploaded too? You did mention it is a free site. Again just curious.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
stoneunhinged
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Bob, I don't really think that anyone here thinks that stealing from you is fine.

I think that Glen thinks that you should buy a load of guns and chase down each and every thief personally. OK, maybe not. Maybe you should pay for some kind of private police to chase them down. Doesn't matter. What Glen believes (I think) is that it is your responsibility to find those thieves rather than the government's.

But I would like an answer from you regarding my last post: do you think that we should shut down sites that provide legitimately useful services just because millions of ****** use the same services to steal?

Perhaps there is a way to target the thieves directly. What would I know? I'm not an IT guy.
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On 2012-01-20 12:35, acesover wrote:

I am just curious. Why would you not let us know which third party you uploaded too? You did mention it is a free site. Again just curious.


Well, at least one reason is that I can't remember which one I used this semester. I suppose I could go look, but is it important to the discussion?
mastermindreader
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Stone-

That's why I thing the problem is too complex to have been solved with a simplistic approach like SOPA. The big issue, I think, is that there are too many sites like megaupload who know full well that their sites are being used illegally and intentionally facilitate, rather than discourage or police, that activity.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-01-20 12:39, stoneunhinged wrote:
Bob, I don't really think that anyone here thinks that stealing from you is fine.


Oh, I do. Or, rather, that the situation Bob describes shouldn't be construed as "stealing."
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
gdw
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Quote:
On 2012-01-20 10:59, Tom Cutts wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-01-20 10:20, gdw wrote:
Duaut, so you are saying it's all fine if the people who download eventually give the file back to the person who uploaded it? Because that would be the defining difference there.
That is absolutely not the defining difference. It would seem the difference between loaning and duplicating has escaped you. FYI calling something "file sharing" doesn't actually make it sharing.


Oh, ok, so it's NOT the "sharing" of the files then that's the issue, but the duplication? So what if I make a copy, but keep it to myself?
Or is it only when the two come together? So it's perfectly ok for me to make a copy, and also perfectly ok for me to give something to someone else, but never the twain shall meet?

Just want to make sure we're clear here.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
LobowolfXXX
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I think the general rule, for most of us, is that when a single copy is purchased, it's not ok for multiple people to simultaneously have different copies. As I suspect you know.

In what sense did you mean that you have a respect for IP?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
MobilityBundle
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Quote:
On 2012-01-20 07:38, gdw wrote:
Although I have respect for ip, and I consider file sharing to often be, um, inconsiderate, no, I do not support using violence against those who decide to share something they buy.


But the thing is, they're not sharing what they buy. They bought a DVD. They're not inviting the world over to their living room to hang out and watch their DVD collection. They're not mailing DVDs around the country to whoever wants to watch them.

They're duplicating the DVDs or broadcasting them over the internet. That's not allowed. If it WERE allowed, there wouldn't be a movie industry, because making a movie would be an economically losing proposition.

People are perfectly able and allowed to sell or give away their DVDs... that goes hand in hand with ownership. But rebroadcasting or duplicating doesn't.
Tom Cutts
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Quote:
On 2012-01-20 13:14, gdw wrote:
Oh, ok, so it's NOT the "sharing" of the files then that's the issue, but the duplication? So what if I make a copy, but keep it to myself?
Or is it only when the two come together? So it's perfectly ok for me to make a copy, and also perfectly ok for me to give something to someone else, but never the twain shall meet?

Just want to make sure we're clear here.
Are you really not comprehending or are you just playing dense? The answers to your questions are:
Yes
No
No
No
MobilityBundle
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Quote:
On 2012-01-20 08:32, irossall wrote:
I am waiting for my local public Library to get busted. Anyone with a Library card (free) can take home many different books, CD's and DVD's without any money changing hands and no money going to the Artist's and Author's of these properties.
I often loan my DVD's and Books to Family and Friends. I guess I should be thrown in Jail or fined as well.
Iven Smile


Libraries are largely excluded from liability by statute. For details, see

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/usc......00-.html
MobilityBundle
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Quote:
Oh, ok, so it's NOT the "sharing" of the files then that's the issue, but the duplication? So what if I make a copy, but keep it to myself?
Or is it only when the two come together? So it's perfectly ok for me to make a copy, and also perfectly ok for me to give something to someone else, but never the twain shall meet?

Just want to make sure we're clear here.


You should familiarize yourself with Chapter 1 of the copyright statute, if you really are interested in questions like this. The statute isn't actually all that complicated. Chapter 1 is here:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/usc_sup_01_17_10_1.html

The structure of the statute is:

section 101: definitions
sections 102-105: what kind of stuff is eligible for copyright
sections 106 & 106A: what rights copyright holders actually hold
section 107-122: exceptions to those rights.

To answer your questions, the basic rights a copyright holder has are:
Quote:
(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;

(2) to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;

(3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;

(4) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works, to perform the copyrighted work publicly;

(5) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, to display the copyrighted work publicly; and

(6) in the case of sound recordings, to perform the copyrighted work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission.


That first part says, no, you generally can't make copies. But section 117 (titled "Limitations on exclusive rights: Computer programs") specifies that you're allowed to make copies for yourself. Or in the language of the statute:
Quote:
(a) Making of Additional Copy or Adaptation by Owner of Copy.— Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided:

(1) that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner, or

(2) that such new copy or adaptation is for archival purposes only and that all archival copies are destroyed in the event that continued possession of the computer program should cease to be rightful.
mastermindreader
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Glen-

Sounds like you have no problem with illegal file "sharing" and don't, in any case, believe that government should protect intellectual property rights. Am I wrong?
stoneunhinged
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Glenn, let's just ask you point blank:

1. If someone downloads a copy of one of Bob's books without paying for it, is that OK or not OK?

2. If it's not OK, who is responsible for trying to compensate Bob for having stolen from him?

Two easy questions, I think. On the other hand, I know that you are good at avoiding direct questions. Doesn't make you a bad person, but it makes you difficult to have discussions with.

Have a beer!

:stout:
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