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gdw
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So now they ARE their own special thing.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
LobowolfXXX
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La Famiglia
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They are inherently different than other forms of property. However, that distinction is not needed to explain the difference between the difference in rights between a downstream owner of a book vs. the downstream owner of a chair. The downstream owner of the book has fewer rights because the upstream owner of the book limited the transfer of his rights, not because the book is "its own special thing."
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-01-25 23:05, gdw wrote:
So now they ARE their own special thing.

Of course. You say that as if you have scored some kind of point when all you have done is to finally recognize the obvious. All different forms of property are their own "special things." Should the laws governing the sales of tacos be applied to the laws regarding the sales of furniture - i.e. should chairs be served only when their internal temperatures reach 160 degrees?
ed rhodes
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[quote]On 2012-01-25 17:01, gdw wrote:
Quote:
Is there some magical intangible inseparable withholding of permission for ANY other form of property, where something is sold and transferred from one party to another? The entire concept of withholding copy "right" is a fabrication. There would be no concept of it naturally inherent in ip were it not for the implementation of ip as a means of censorship and control by the crown. None of the bs concepts of ip regulations and laws were inherently observed by people, like other ACTIAL inherent properties of property, before this, out side of the concept of keeping a secret and honouring your agreements.
Everything else regarding up restrictions are artificial impositions born out of censorship and crown granted monopoly.


I'm sorry you don't get the idea that a person's intellectual creation is different from a thing like a chair or a car.
I'm not surprised, but I am sorry.

I think you want to live in the 19th Century when the creator of a work sold it and ALL rights to it. If a publisher bought a work by Charles Dickens, they had the right to resell that work to anyone they wanted without any compensation made to the creator.

And yes, we are "censoring" your right to steal someone else's work and distribute it without their express permission.
"There's no time to lose," I heard her say.
"Catch your dreams before they slip away."
"Dying all the time, lose your dreams and you could lose your mind.
Ain't life unkind?"
mastermindreader
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Glen-

Sorry you have stooped to calling copyright law, intellectual property, etc., "bs concepts" just because you don't agree with them.

I don't call your anarchist views "bs" because denigrating someones views, no matter how ridiculous, just isn't polite and certainly doesn't score any debate points.
Destiny
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ARTHUR: I have no quarrel with you, good Sir knight, but I must
cross this bridge.
BLACK KNIGHT: Then you shall die.
ARTHUR: I command you as King of the Britons to stand aside!
BLACK KNIGHT: I move for no man.
ARTHUR: So be it!
[hah]
[parry thrust]
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's left arm off]
ARTHUR: Now stand aside, worthy adversary.
BLACK KNIGHT: 'Tis but a scratch.
ARTHUR: A scratch? Your arm's off!
BLACK KNIGHT: No, it isn't.
ARTHUR: Well, what's that then?
BLACK KNIGHT: I've had worse.
ARTHUR: You liar!
BLACK KNIGHT: Come on you pansy!
[hah]
[parry thrust]
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's right arm off]
ARTHUR: Victory is mine!
[kneeling]
We thank thee Lord, that in thy merc-
[hah]
BLACK KNIGHT: Come on then.
ARTHUR: What?
BLACK KNIGHT: Have at you!
ARTHUR: You are indeed brave, Sir knight, but the fight is mine.
BLACK KNIGHT: Oh, had enough, eh?
ARTHUR: Look, you stupid ***, you've got no arms left.
BLACK KNIGHT: Yes I have.
ARTHUR: Look!
BLACK KNIGHT: Just a flesh wound.
[bang]
ARTHUR: Look, stop that.
BLACK KNIGHT: Chicken! Chicken!
ARTHUR: Look, I'll have your leg. Right!
[whop]
BLACK KNIGHT: Right, I'll do you for that!
ARTHUR: You'll what?
BLACK KNIGHT: Come 'ere!
ARTHUR: What are you going to do, bleed on me?
BLACK KNIGHT: I'm invincible!
ARTHUR: You're a loony.
BLACK KNIGHT: The Black Knight always triumphs!
Have at you! Come on then.
[whop]
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's other leg off]
BLACK KNIGHT: All right; we'll call it a draw.
ARTHUR: Come, Patsy.
BLACK KNIGHT: Oh, oh, I see, running away then. You yellow
***s! Come back here and take what's coming to you.
I'll bite your legs off!
balducci
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Destiny, Happy Australia Day! (Or am I a day late?)
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Jonathan Townsend
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Sounds like you about ready to ask for contract/trade secret agreements on magic item.

Look up the basic legal practice on that notion for details on its current implementation.

Also perhaps scripts as plays.

The first protects the methodology of a trick, or it's system of doing business while the second protects the distinct novel aspects of what we lump under the term "presentation" .
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Destiny
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Thank You Balducci - well you posted on Jan 26 where you are and Jan 26 is Australia Day so I think you're fine.

There's a lot of nonsense surrounding Australia Day these days. Sadly there's people who now think being born here makes them special, rather than privileged. But regardless I heard a wonderful old version of Waltzing Matilda on the radio in the car and it made my heart glad.
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-01-25 22:57, gdw wrote:
What makes their police power enforceable/legit?


The first part of your question is a non sequitor, because the police power of a state IS the mechanism of enforceability. It is legitimate, in the commonly accepted view of modern western civilization, when it is implemented by a government representative of its citizens, and in accordance with the powers the citizens have granted it. That is what is meant by government "of the people, by the people and for the people."
gdw
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So it's enforced by the gun, and legitimate by mob rule?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Steve_Mollett
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Robert Ringer called them "The game players with the guns."

In their absence, however, the biggest guns would be in the hands of the guys who could afford the most 'pistoleros.'
I'm sure you've seen the movies with city bosses and/or cattle barons with their hired gunmen.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-01-26 18:22, gdw wrote:
So it's enforced by the gun, and legitimate by mob rule?


That is not even close to what I wrote, as anyone with an ounce of common sense can plainly see. Now that you have equated a representative government with "mob rule" your entire argument has descended into useless sophistry.

Here's what I wrote - please point out where it even remotely mentions "mob rule":

Quote:
The first part of your question is a non sequitor, because the police power of a state IS the mechanism of enforceability. It is legitimate, in the commonly accepted view of modern western civilization, when it is implemented by a government representative of its citizens, and in accordance with the powers the citizens have granted it. That is what is meant by government "of the people, by the people and for the people."
gdw
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How can it be representative of its "citizenry" if not representing the majority, and imposed by police force, thus backed by the gun.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
gdw
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Personally, I would suggest that a minority are able to take away the rights of the majority.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
mastermindreader
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More non-sequitors that fail entirely to respond to the question I asked. Where did you get the idea that "representative government" is the equivalent of mob rule? You didn't respond to that at all.

By its very definition, "mob rule" is the opposite of government. "Representative government" as set forth in my earlier post is, by definition, representative of the people. You just seem to be assuming that there is no such thing.

"Police Power" does not mean enforcement at the point of a gun. The term "police power of the state" refers to the power of the government to enact and enforce its laws. In the US "police power" applies only to state and local governments and is granted to them through the 10th Amendment to the Constitution. Federal laws can only be enforced through specific powers granted in the Constitution.

For a detailed explanation see: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Police+Power

Virtually every argument you have made presumes facts not in evidence.
gdw
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Mob rule is generally understood to be a pejorative for democracy. Of course america is supposed to be a "republic," however, as the "rights" to be protected are able to be overruled, redefined, etc, by what is, in theory, representative of the desires of the majority, then, in practice there is no difference.

Of course, as I mentioned, it's pretty hard to take seriously the notion that the government is actually representing the desires of the majority, unless you mean those who have the majority of the money.

As for this:

"The term "police power of government" refers to the power of the government to enforce its laws. Police power does not merely mean enforcement at the point of a gun."

Try ignoring that "power" next time and let me know how they enforce it, then tell me this one again.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
gdw
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" Under the system of government in the United States, only states have the right to make laws based on their police power. The lawmaking power of the federal government is limited to the specific grants of power found in the Constitution."

Can anyone here tell me, with a straight face, that is in anyway descriptive of today? How many federal run drug raids are there on medical marijuana despenceries in California?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
mastermindreader
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Yeah- just keep changing the subject. I've given up expecting any serious answers to my questions.
mastermindreader
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BTW- It should be noted that the United States is a Republic and NOT a pure democracy. It is the latter that Jefferson was referring to when he stated that democracy was "mob rule." You will note that I have consistently used the phrase "representative government" and not "democracy." Thus, your statement that "mob rule" is commonly used as a pejorative for "democracy" is irrelevant to this discussion.

(What is ironic, though, is that "mob rule" is often used as a synonym for "anarchy" in common discourse.)
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