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mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-01-31 13:30, gdw wrote:
Also, are you seriously going to claim that the dweebs putting stuff online are MORE of an abomination than the system that gave us, and continues to support, the likes of monsanto? If there were ever a perfect example of all that is wrong with the current system it is the existence of monsanto.*
Or do you REALLY think that your precious books of tricks being found online is the bigger tragedy here? Is that the hubris I'm dealing with?


And with that, we're done. That is the most asinine and irrelevant comment I have ever heard.

If you want to deal with hubris, I suggest you look in a mirror.
gdw
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Dan, Bob, and Devious, the atrocities I mention are the DIRECT consequences of the very things you are arguing for in support of "protecting" your products. This is not the equivalent of Godwin's law as I am referring to direct real world examples of the consequences of the ip "protection" you advocate. If you can't deal with the cognitive dissonance and want to use it as an excuse to walk away from the discussion then so be it.

As mentioned, the fact that the examples I bring up are reality, not some outlandish hypothetical extension of what you propose, show that this is not just reductio ad absurdum, but the observable reality which stands in stark contrast to the justification put forth by IP proponents. The reality is the exact opposite of what you want ip law to do.

We are not talking about a system that is simply "not perfect," but rather corrupt beyond repair, and, as I maintain, fundamentally flawed at its foundation.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
gdw
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Quote:
On 2012-01-31 14:17, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think you over-generalize.

When there is a great deal of public pressure, the government is often not needed; I certainly agree with that.

There is not, however, a great deal of public pressure to discourage jackwagons from providing free books and music to the masses.


Do you think there is more public pressure to stop similar jackwagons from exposing magic methods?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
critter
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Quote:
On 2012-01-31 17:25, gdw wrote:
We are not talking about a system that is simply "not perfect," but rather corrupt beyond repair, and, as I maintain, fundamentally flawed at its foundation.


All of which would appear to be the minority opinion.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
gdw
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Oh, so multibillion dollar corporations suing farmers for the seeds from their crops,, and maintaining a virtual monopoly on corn is what you dismiss as "not perfect?"
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Jonathan Townsend
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Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
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Quote:
On 2012-01-31 13:11, DanHarlan wrote:...
1) Do not expose secrets to the public.
2) Respect other magicians' performances.
3) Respect creators' concepts and presentations....


Dan, that would alienate most in our community. From those who've put their name on a magic item for the public to anyone who's let an item out to distributors who in turn are free to sell to the public all exposers. Then we get to those who feel their variations on a work that they got to know about (somehow) merit discussing the workings of the work(s) their item builds upon. While it might make a safe place for innovators, performers and technicians/machinists etc - it does not seem to support anything like the marketplace magic currently has.

That seems to imply no selling to untrusted third parties - and likely selling only under a trade secrets agreement. Now we get to the legalities of such an ethos - not sure it would stand up in court.

IMHO we're better off simply keeping what we don't want on YouTube or shared via the internet in private transactions with the basic "underground" type security of "you know how much we gossip - and you know that if gets back to me that you shared something I want kept quiet you simply won't get any more from me and others might well treat you likewise". I can attest that ethos works well when people ask about an idea or material and they in turn get referred to someone working in that area - and building networks of trusted contacts.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
DanHarlan
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GDW--
I haven't walked away, although I am tired. I simply don't want to waste your time with my petty concerns if you are truly more interested in eliminating corruption on a grand scale. This discussion won't do that. Perhaps you've forgotten that I agree with you in general, but disagree that redistributing power will eliminate corruption. In fact, I may even have a more "realistic" view than you do. From what you say, I think you are smart enough to throughly examine your theories with the same pessimistic attitude you have toward the current system. I'm just saying that perhaps, just perhaps, you'll find your philosophical trust has been misplaced. All ideals work as long as everyone cooperates. Your belief that they will (for whatever reason) does not reassure me. On the other hand...

Jonathan--
If someone among us is alienated by our long-standing tradition of ethics, then we are better off without them, regardless of the cost. You have grasped my position exactly. I'm not implying anything. I am taking a stand IN FAVOR of a RETURN to our CODE OF ETHICS. I will do it. I will ask my customers to do it. I will ask my distributors to do it AND to ask their customers to do it. I will remind everyone who attends my lectures to do it. We must all work together to protect our secrets to further the mystery upon which we build enjoyment for our audiences. Anyone who disagrees is not welcome. There is no law involved in this ethical commitment. Instead, it is as you say, "building networks of trusted contacts." I believe we have all become too lax in our attitude regarding "sharing" our magical knowledge. It is a simple matter for us to re-affirm our commitment to the central tenets of our specialized art. Tired of watching the rampant trivialization of magic, I have taken the first step. Are you with me?
--Dan Harlan
Visit My Site @

www.danharlanmagic.com
Jonathan Townsend
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Eternal Order
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Dan, I get the feeling we're pretty close in respect for the craft and wish to see things improve.

IMHO you'll find the history and "names" in our craft are not so consistent or "ethical" by your stated standards and rules. I'm staying out of the "crime and punishment" - uploading, YouTube etc dialog. Instead I treat what people show or discuss with me as private. And when folks ask about a trick they saw on TV I just ask them "did you like it?" and let them talk.

So I'm sitting back on most of my own works and will continue to contribute to the Café with the proviso that the material stay where it's put unless specific permissions are given. That way folks can find what I choose to share where I put it. Folks who want more or other can use PMs and email to discuss. That's worked pretty well so far.

Just another note from "underground"

J
...to all the coins I've dropped here
gdw
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Sorry Mr. Harlan, that was probably better directed at Mr. Cassidy.

My belief is not that they will all cooperate, and it's certainly not contingent on them doing so, no more than your ideas concerning dealing with exposure. As I mentioned before, your ideas for dealing with exposure are EXACTLY the same as my suggestions for dealing with ip "violators." Why are they considered idealistic when applied to dealing with ip, and other non-violent/aggressive conflicts as I suggest, but not so for dealing with exposure as you suggest?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
magicfish
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GDW, did you read Mr. Cassidy's last post?
magicfish
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Quote:
On 2012-01-31 20:18, DanHarlan wrote:
GDW--
I haven't walked away, although I am tired. I simply don't want to waste your time with my petty concerns if you are truly more interested in eliminating corruption on a grand scale. This discussion won't do that. Perhaps you've forgotten that I agree with you in general, but disagree that redistributing power will eliminate corruption. In fact, I may even have a more "realistic" view than you do. From what you say, I think you are smart enough to throughly examine your theories with the same pessimistic attitude you have toward the current system. I'm just saying that perhaps, just perhaps, you'll find your philosophical trust has been misplaced. All ideals work as long as everyone cooperates. Your belief that they will (for whatever reason) does not reassure me. On the other hand...

Jonathan--
If someone among us is alienated by our long-standing tradition of ethics, then we are better off without them, regardless of the cost. You have grasped my position exactly. I'm not implying anything. I am taking a stand IN FAVOR of a RETURN to our CODE OF ETHICS. I will do it. I will ask my customers to do it. I will ask my distributors to do it AND to ask their customers to do it. I will remind everyone who attends my lectures to do it. We must all work together to protect our secrets to further the mystery upon which we build enjoyment for our audiences. Anyone who disagrees is not welcome. There is no law involved in this ethical commitment. Instead, it is as you say, "building networks of trusted contacts." I believe we have all become too lax in our attitude regarding "sharing" our magical knowledge. It is a simple matter for us to re-affirm our commitment to the central tenets of our specialized art. Tired of watching the rampant trivialization of magic, I have taken the first step. Are you with me?
--Dan Harlan

Amen
gdw
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Quote:
On 2012-01-31 21:19, magicfish wrote:
GDW, did you read Mr. Cassidy's last post?


Yes, and mine was a direct response to his.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
gdw
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Quote:
On 2012-01-31 21:37, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-01-31 20:18, DanHarlan wrote:
GDW--
I haven't walked away, although I am tired. I simply don't want to waste your time with my petty concerns if you are truly more interested in eliminating corruption on a grand scale. This discussion won't do that. Perhaps you've forgotten that I agree with you in general, but disagree that redistributing power will eliminate corruption. In fact, I may even have a more "realistic" view than you do. From what you say, I think you are smart enough to throughly examine your theories with the same pessimistic attitude you have toward the current system. I'm just saying that perhaps, just perhaps, you'll find your philosophical trust has been misplaced. All ideals work as long as everyone cooperates. Your belief that they will (for whatever reason) does not reassure me. On the other hand...

Jonathan--
If someone among us is alienated by our long-standing tradition of ethics, then we are better off without them, regardless of the cost. You have grasped my position exactly. I'm not implying anything. I am taking a stand IN FAVOR of a RETURN to our CODE OF ETHICS. I will do it. I will ask my customers to do it. I will ask my distributors to do it AND to ask their customers to do it. I will remind everyone who attends my lectures to do it. We must all work together to protect our secrets to further the mystery upon which we build enjoyment for our audiences. Anyone who disagrees is not welcome. There is no law involved in this ethical commitment. Instead, it is as you say, "building networks of trusted contacts." I believe we have all become too lax in our attitude regarding "sharing" our magical knowledge. It is a simple matter for us to re-affirm our commitment to the central tenets of our specialized art. Tired of watching the rampant trivialization of magic, I have taken the first step. Are you with me?
--Dan Harlan

Amen


Seriously, you're all going out of your way to be ironic here, right?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
magicfish
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Quote:
On 2012-01-31 21:55, gdw wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-01-31 21:19, magicfish wrote:
GDW, did you read Mr. Cassidy's last post?


Yes, and mine was a direct response to his.

Do you not care that a very well respected member of the magic community has called your comments asinine?
gdw
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What's your point fish?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
magicfish
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My point is that you seem to just keep going until youre the only guy left in the room talking to yourself after everyone else has walked away shaking their heads.
You do this on every topic. Arent you embarrassed? don't you think its time for a self assessment?
Last year Stoneunhinged verbally reduced you to rubble in a post. You didn't even aknowledge it, you just kept rambling laterally.
Now a legend of magic has had to leave a discussion because of how utterly ridiculous your posts are. And did you aknowledge it? No. You just keep rambling on about nothing.
Now you have that right. But don't you even care? I would be mortified.
Destiny
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Quote:
On 2012-02-01 09:38, magicfish wrote:
My point is that you seem to just keep going until youre the only guy left in the room talking to yourself after everyone else has walked away shaking their heads.
You do this on every topic. Arent you embarrassed? don't you think its time for a self assessment?
Last year Stoneunhinged verbally reduced you to rubble in a post. You didn't even aknowledge it, you just kept rambling laterally.
Now a legend of magic has had to leave a discussion because of how utterly ridiculous your posts are. And did you aknowledge it? No. You just keep rambling on about nothing.
Now you have that right. But don't you even care? I would be mortified.


What a great post! A really great post!
critter
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To be fair, Glenn is hardly the only one who does that. I can think of at least 3 others (won't name names.) It's kind of like its own Café sub-genre.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
DanHarlan
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GDW--
You and I are talking about the same thing on every level, so let me try to break it down and bring it home. Remember Evelyn's IDEA? Let's say she wants to sell it. Remember now that we have scrapped the copyright law. She has no inherent protection of her IDEA/PROPERTY. She knows that when she tells me the IDEA, then I will also OWN it... including all rights to do whatever I want to with it... unless she specifically requests that there are certain rights she'd like me not to have. If I agree, she will sell her IDEA to me. Evelyn has put a lot of thought into this transaction and realizes that (unlike physical property) an IDEA cannot be taken back once it is transferred into the possession of another (she cites T. Jefferson). Therefore, she sets out to create a set of restrictions that will both protect her PROPERTY and allow me to use it as MINE. Perhaps you'd care to guess at the specific restrictions and the form of NOTICE that Evelyn decides to include in her transfer of the IDEA to me. As you have stated, you are okay with all of these concepts as long as they are voluntary. Me too. Remember (at least in this example) I'm a bad, dishonest man. I accept Evelyn's restrictions because I know that she is poor and not well-known and cannot prove in any way that she originated the IDEA. There is no registration process or office with which to file. There are no forms to fill out. Nothing to apply for. Nothing to be granted to her by anyone which states that she has any claim to her original IDEA/PROPERTY. Because I have money, and friends with money, and money with money, I re-write her IDEA (my PROPERTY) and sell it to 1000 of my friends (restrictions, what restrictions?). Or, perhaps I ain't got no realtime buds, but check my site for a FREE d'load 'cause I'm killer like dat (which incidentally increases my profits from my advertisers). Evelyn who? Look man, I can extrapolate, obfuscate, infiltrate and facilitate... 'cause it's too late.

We see abuses in our current system precisely because there is a system. A flawed system. In my mind, we require both legal accountability and conscientious participation in order to identify abuses and contructively correct those flaws.

Now, back to local news... My call for a return to the Magician's Code of Ethics is precisely because there is no law in our "secret" society... and so... ethics is all we got, man... and if we don't have that, then we get what we are getting now... only more of it. I'm sick of it. I'm not alone in my disgust over it. We have only ourselves to blame for it. I am taking steps to correct it on my personal level. I'm asking my friends in magic to think about it. Our little secrets are not a matter of National Security, but they are a matter of professional security. Like espionage, our success relies upon maintaining the value of secret information. If we wish to present entertaining mysteries, we owe it to our audiences to keep our secrets safe. It is in everyone's best interest. Pirates and thieves can go back to stealing movies and music. I honestly don't care. They just have no business having access to your secrets. Magic can still be available to anyone who is interested. We just need to remind them (and ourselves), until we're tired of hearing it (and then remind ourselves again and again):
1) Do not expose secrets to the public.
2) Respect other magicians' performances.
3) Respect creators' concepts and presentations.
Yes, there will be abuses to the Code... by liars and thieves. And they will know, with absolute certainty, that they are liars and thieves. Right now, they don't even think they're doing anything wrong... they're just "sharing." Well, **** them! Take the oath. The problem is that no-one does. When's the last time you did? Have you taken the oath and then exposed a secret to the public? Bad-mouthed Criss Angel to a layman? Got any torrents? I say, if you don't want to accept the responsibilities of being a member in our society, I don't want you. I won't lose anything except another loose end.
--Dan Harlan
Visit My Site @

www.danharlanmagic.com
gdw
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Fish, I DID acknowledge it, abd pointed out how his emotional reaction did not hold as a critique in reality. He was dismissing me based on my presentation of "extremes.". When someone takes your position to extremes in an attempt to argue against it, it can be viewed as a last ditch attempt to attack your position. Yup, reductio ad absurdum. However, when those extremes are not hypothetical extrapolations, but the observable reality, the actual direct consequences of what you are espousing, it's another thing all together, and perhaps it is YOU (or Mr. Cassidy, or whoever) who is in need of some self assessment.

My position is only gaining ground, with more and more people turning completely from the current system of ip, and excelling with it, while your position only seems to be leading to more corrupt corporations getting more money, while trampling over the individual, including the artist.

If it wasn't for the likes Louis CK, Nine Inch Nails, Gorillaz, Radiohead, and the many more growing artists proving the "justifications" are utterly fallacious, and pharmaceutical companies, monsanto, and other multibillion dollar corporations continuing to screw over everyone, then maybe there would be a basis for me to change my mind.
Of course everyone seems happy to ignore the fact that I HAVE changed my mind. My current positions are the result of self assessment, not a lack of it.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
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