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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
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On 2012-01-25 17:10, gdw wrote: The seller certainly doesn't have to transfer all of his rights. When you transfer something, you DO have the right to choose which rights you're transfering. The owner is entitled to reserve his copyright, and you're entitled to bargain for him to waive it (good luck), or to refuse to purchase. For all intents and purposes, buyers in the western world know that they're buying books subject to the reservation of copyright. Copyright protection shifts the default; that's all. As for implicit agreements, we participate in them all the time. Contracts are implied by conduct. When I go to the supermarket, I grab a cart that doesn't belong to me. I understand that the supermarket intends for me to be able to borrow it for a while, and I also understand that they don't intend for me to take it home. They never sign a document saying I can use it for the limited purpose of shopping in the store, and I never sign one saying I'll return it after I'm done shopping. Somehow, it all works out. Similarly, when you buy a book in the United States (or, yes, Canada), having a rudimentary notion of copyright law (and probably a book that says "All Rights Reserved" on the title page, or something close to it), by your conduct, you're freely purchasing LESS than the full ownership rights that would accrue had you been the one to write the book (or had the author signed over ALL of his rights to you).
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
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On 2012-01-25 19:41, gdw wrote: "Contract" without the force of law is a non sequitur.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
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On 2012-01-25 21:18, LobowolfXXX wrote: Though I disagree, who said anything about contract there? I was talking about rights, and establishing then based on principle before making them law.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
In the context of this discussion, the rights of a secondary owner flow from the transfer from the original owner. The purchaser's rights are not inherent; they flow from the original owner, via contract principles.
A contract is a legally enforceable promise. No force of law = no contract.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Destiny Inner circle 1429 Posts |
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On 2012-01-25 21:17, LobowolfXXX wrote: This sums it up beautifully - even a simpleton could understand from this clear concise explanation. (I anticipate having to stand corrected. I would assume that if someone put out a magic or mindreading ebook and made it a condition of sale that the contents of that book and the secrets and techniques explained therein were being sold only for the use of the direct purchaser and that any further distribution would entail a fee equal to the original purchase price - and they ensured the purchaser was aware of this condition - that would be legally binding in most nations on the planet? GDW - do you argue against the right of an originator or creator of art/literature/music/magic etc to have choice and control over their creation? It seems you are arguing for a Pandora's Box law - the moment they allow their creation to see the merest hint of light in the outside world, they are to give it wings and let it fly where it wouldst. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Your assumption is correct, Destiny. But if you sell a book in which use of the material is limited to use by the original purchaser, what you are really selling is a license.
And Lobo is absolutely correct when he states that a contract is meaningless without enforceability. Furthermore, it is a fundamental tenet of contract law that an essential element of a enforceable contract is "legality of purpose." And what determines legality? Laws. Good thoughts, Bob |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
They have as much control as they do over their physical property. Do you consider it "pandora's box" when someone sells a chair, and no longer has control over it after the sale?
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
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On 2012-01-25 21:56, mastermindreader wrote: Bob, if contracts are made enforceable by laws, what makes laws enforceable?
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
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On 2012-01-25 22:11, gdw wrote: An effective government, preferably representative, with police and judiciary powers. |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
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On 2012-01-25 22:02, gdw wrote: I must be misunderstanding your point here. Can I take a 5-year lease on a car and not return it because the dealership relinquised control of their physical property? Obviously not. The rights and control is based not at all on possession of the physical property, but on the extent of the agreed-upon transfer of the rights.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
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On 2012-01-25 22:14, LobowolfXXX wrote: This would hold just fine, if the book/cd/DVD was bring leased. But it's not. Also, unlike with a lease, information can't exactly be taken back, at least not as far as it is retained in the mind.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
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On 2012-01-25 22:13, mastermindreader wrote: And what makes their decisions enforceable?
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
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On 2012-01-25 22:29, gdw wrote: And the sale of a book/cd/DVD would be comparable to the sale of a chair if, as in the case of the chair, it were sold as an "all-rights" transfer. But it's not. As is very clear from your response, though, you recognize that the right is NOT based on physical transfer or control, but on the agreement of the parties.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
Lobo, if we are treating ip as property, then we should treat it as property, not as it's own special thing. If what you say is true, then one would be able to go after the resale, or duplication of physical property in the same manner, and yet we don't see people going after individuals reselling chairs for tens of thousands of dollars.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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debaser Special user Boulder 557 Posts |
Great conversation guys, it has been a long time since I've been a part of a down home Café argument. love it.
just for people who are tuning in, Once again the ultimate issue (see my comments or Mr. townsends) is that appropriate laws must be made and not wide sweeping shotgun blasts that kill everything in site with no accountability. if you guys are interested I would recommed googling copyleft "google it while you still have the chance.........." and Mr cassidy loses his third eye in favor of handsomeness |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
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On 2012-01-25 22:30, gdw wrote: I just answered that. |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
What makes their police power enforceable/legit?
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
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On 2012-01-25 22:52, gdw wrote: You're either missing or ignoring a point I've made several times. Books are sold with rights reserved. That doesn't make them their own special thing. You could sell real property as, for instance, a "life estate," one that reverts back to the owner after a triggering event. Any transfer of property rights can be UP TO (but less than) the full extent of the rights that the seller holds. Most people who sell books do so with rights reserved. Some do not.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
So then why an entire section of law devoted to books and information separate from just a law applying to the sale of ALL property?
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Probably because it's inherently different from other forms of property by virtue of its nature. You can say that it's just like a chair, in that it's something that can be sold, but it's a gross misrepresentation of its nature with respect to the rather obvious concerns that we're talking about here.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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