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mastermindreader
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It doesn't matter which creator or if there even is one. The point is that if certain rights are inherent, as Glen claims, they have therefore been endowed from somewhere. Rights arising solely from reasoning cannot be considered inherent. If you eliminate the notion of a metaphysical origin of rights, as Glen has done, you also eliminate the inherency he attaches to rights vis a vis privileges.
gdw
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I meant for the formulation of their arguments. I could have well said "logic for the basis" and logic is inherent in the nature of the universe.
One can reason that rights are inherent
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
gdw
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Quote:
On 2012-02-07 20:17, mastermindreader wrote:
It doesn't matter which creator or if there even is one. The point is that if certain rights are inherent, as Glen claims, they have therefore been endowed from somewhere. Rights arising solely from reasoning cannot be considered inherent. If you eliminate the notion of a metaphysical origin of rights, as Glen has done, you also eliminate the inherency he attaches to rights vis a vis privileges.


"The point is that if certain rights are inherent, as Glen claims, they have therefore been endowed from somewhere."

That's a complete non sequitur. You just said if you have something naturally it must have been given to you.

Glenn
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
mastermindreader
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I don't rely on "sky daddies" for anything. (Nor do I use such dismissive terms when I speak of other peoples faiths.) Instead, like most people, I rely on commonly accepted definitions:

in·her·ent/inˈhi(ə)rənt/
Adjective:

1. Existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute: "inherent dangers".
2. Vested in (someone) as a right or privilege: "the president's inherent power".

Thus, any legally vested right can be said to be inherent, including, obviously, intellectual property rights.
gdw
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I've been consistently using the first definition.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
mastermindreader
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And, just as consistently, ignoring the second.

But again, the first definition doesn't refer to something arrived at by reason or logic, but simply to something that "is." That's where the metaphysics come in.

Be that as it may - as I noted a long time ago, this discussion is really pointless because we can't even agree on definitions, let alone the nature of rights, laws, democracies (and/or republics), etc.
gdw
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One understands what is by reason. Just because something "is" does not require metaphysics to explaine it. Wet in an inherent property of liquid, but it dies not require a metaphysical explanation. Matter has inherent properties, but we don't need metaphysical explanations. We have explanations based on reality, and the can be understood and explored with reason.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
gdw
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What I don't understand is why these ideas are met with such animosity.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
mastermindreader
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"Inherent" is not a property like "wet." The latter is a physical property of matter and can be observed. Proprietary rights, on the other hand, are not physical properties of anything.

And just because I totally disagree with the practicality and efficacy of the solutions you propose does not imply animosity. Just complete disagreement.
gdw
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I wasn't saying "inherent" is a property, I was saying "wet" is an "inherent property."
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-02-07 15:42, gdw wrote:
Self ownership is simply axiomatic.


The reality is, most of the discussion centers around different people having different axioms. (Different from each other, that is)
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Devious
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I have read every single post in this thread, but for the life of me cannot understand,
why folks would upload a copy of a book, dvd, pdf, that they have paid money for?

What's in it for the uploader? Popularity, revenge against the author/creator etc?
Would someone please enlighten me, for I've never figured it out.
Devious Deceptions
"Gadol Elohai!"
L'Chaim!
Jonathan Townsend
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Market and graffiti ethos aside, try getting back to Dan's question.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
gdw
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Quote:
On 2012-02-09 14:09, Devious wrote:
I have read every single post in this thread, but for the life of me cannot understand,
why folks would upload a copy of a book, dvd, pdf, that they have paid money for?

What's in it for the uploader? Popularity, revenge against the author/creator etc?
Would someone please enlighten me, for I've never figured it out.


There are similar factors to those involved in magic "exposure," that is online attention. However I think one of the larger infuences is reciprocity.
Both in the manner of initial trade, ie. I have file a, you have file b, we "trade" and we both have a and b, as well as "giving back" to the torrent "community.". The latter likely evolving from the former.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
gdw
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Quote:
On 2012-02-09 14:13, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Market and graffiti ethos aside, try getting back to Dan's question.


Are you referring to the question of a right to own property in the first place?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
gdw
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Read this article on ip and 3D printing abd thought it was a worthwhile read:
http://www.shapeways.com/blog/archives/1......facebook
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
gdw
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Canadian bill they are trying to pass, and actually have been trying to for nearly a decade I believe, similar to the american pcfop bill.

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/6316/125/

The conservatives here are trying to sell it with the same rhetoric the american bill has written right into its name.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
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