Same can be said of writing I guess.

Then please share with us your qualifications for "great. Taking an acting class won't necessarily make or break a performer. Neither will standing in front of a mirror. And the biggest problem with a mirror is that it's not going to give you any feedback. Going out and performing is what makes the difference. Is a mirror going to pick a card, or hold the coins in its hand, or perfect your classic force? No. Don't get me wrong, it can be helpful (although a video camera is FAR better in my opinion because you don't have the urge to look at your reflection, and you can go back and watch the tape,) but it's not going to make anyone the next brilliant performer either.

I certainly think that acting classes can only take someone so far. Some abilities you need to just have. The good part about lessons is that they get you to interact with other people and they can find tune the skills you have. The biggest problem I see in performers today is that ALL they do is sit in front of a mirror. They have almost no social skills because while they're technically advanced, their presentations and overall demeanor are incredibly awkward because they spend 12 hours a day in a locked room working on card tricks. An acting class never hurt a performer, and even better, working with a magician on your routines can be incredibly helpful. That's why I did, and it did wonders for me. It was hardly about just the tricks. It was about the presentation. If you aren't lucky enough to live somewhere like LA where you have the best of the best to choose from, an acting class can certainly make a lot of difference, and performers will see advances in their presentations. I'm sure of it.

You seem to be down on people's suggestions and you seem to not be a fan of a lot of the magic that's out there, which I find odd. Again I would ask, what do you think should be done to make people better performers, and additionally, who would you consider to be a performer that IS doing it right? Who are you a fan of? You can say that selling books and DVDs isn't a measure of greatness - I think Twilight is a load of garbage but about 300 million teenage girls disagree with me - but you can't deny that those sales certainly do say something about a performer and now well they do with audiences. Ammar's patter isn't my favorite because I find it a bit redundant, but that's my personal opinion and I still think he's a fantastic performer. Just because *I* may not be gaga over some of his presentations, I think he connects incredibly well with audiences. That's why he and so many other guys like him are working constantly. I would be shocked if they said that acting classes of some kind would be a bad thing. In fact Jeff McBride highly recommends them.

Well said, Andrew! Acting classes DO help with presentation skills....immensely. It's not about the trick....it IS about the presentation and acting classes truly do help develop and polish those skills. Billy may be right however, taking an acting class at a community college in Iowa may not be as effective as taking one from a real pro like you have (lots of) in LA....but it couldn't hurt either.

More and more magicians are offering lessons on Skype now as well. Tony Clark, Michael Vincent, and quite a few others. That's another good route for those not living close to performers they'd like to work with.

There is so much more to performing theater.
Will it help?

Yes, because one learns experience on the stage, it's a skill to be a Stage Director, a Lighting Director, a Sound Director, a Prop Director, a Make-up Artist, a Set Designer, and to Act. Are these important to an entertainer? Of course.

What is "good" and what is "bad" is another world loaded with opinions. Some people absolutely hate David Copperfield's Flying, while other cried. Explaining these emotions probably would require a book on the topic.

The worst critic are Magicians, and that is a pet peeve of mine because they don't know what the correct "behavior expectations" that are required. For it to work right magic would have to be secondary, however, most of the time it is the central focus..."The Illusion".

Do I know, nope. There is so-so much involved here.

Think of a good movie, then think of all the professionals it took to make it happen (The credits), now think of the best magician you know and what credit list does that person have. It should drive home my point.

Well it must be great to have nothing else to learn. Luck you Billy.

Keep us posted because obviously you will be skyrocketing to the top of Las Vegas with multiple TV specials a year. Can't WAIT.

Andrew- yea I have used skype several times when I am teaching or helping other magicians. it is a great option to take advantage of. technology is really offering some neat things that we can utilize to help us grow.

sam

Danny,

I have a ton to learn, but I was trying to offer what I have learned in the last 5 years (yes, only five years) of performing for REAL people. I have so much to learn that I often loose focus on what I know, this theory I was working on was at first to focus my knowledge to expand upon. Im sorry if I insulted some people, but I often think the ones insulted are the "bad" magicians Im talking about. I am very very far from perfect, yet I do have perfect performances at times...before my revelations about how "I" should perform, this was a non occurance.

Respect,
Billy

p.s. I gave up on the idea of being anything more then a "small" town performer when I had children. That is not to say that I would have made it "big", but I would venture a guess in saying I atleast had a shot, or a greater shot then some.

Umm are you saying that I am a bad magician for felling insulted. I merely was telling you that your attitude and approach was off and would not set well with others.

hence the feed back you are getting.

Danny is not a bad magician either and he also called you out on this idea.

you only have 5 years experience and my comment was not meant to put you down but to wake you up. I have over 20 some years of experience performing over 7000 live shows but I STILL HAVE LOTS TO LEARN. you never stop learning that is the one thing every magician needs to know.

I would say I was not offended by the idea but how you were approaching it and how you came off. yes there are lots of "bad" magicians but as stated before I choose not to focus on them but rather make sure my show is top notch and that when I can I help others and share what I have learned over the years. the key is to put forth the positive and promote the ideas that will help others grow and improve their shows.

best of luck to you Billy.

magically yours
sam

Although Billy is right on with his theory (lots of bad magicians/performers), he is dead wrong with the approach.

Here's what I would recommend:

1. Make a private list of all you find wrong.
2. Don't write about what's wrong.
3. Write in a positive manner regarding how to do it right.

You still get your point across (and are helpful) without sounding like the south end of a north-bound horse.

Well Put Mike.

It takes you 10 years to learn you what you have to learn!

Oh and just so we are clear I have been working for REAL people (as opposed to imaginary people I guess.) for 20+ years. Doing over 250 shows a year for most of it.

So what?

I have never worked 250 shows in one year. Just for the record. That is a lot of shows.

I would think I would burn out but it would be fun to find out!

Friendly Decomposing

Danny,

Again, what makes you think Im talking about you? I have been a working pro for less time then you, does that mean I don't have a grasp on what is and what is not good magic/magicians? Also, my manuscript is jam packed full of information that is helpfull...yet, I feel that some barriers have to be broken down before the helfullness sinks in.

For example, some people think that its "o.k." to assume that lay people could not "figure out" bad tricks. Also, some magicians think that using props that scream "gimmick", passes becuse they have used them to success in the past? However, their past success is often just people being polite when they don't say something like, "I want to look at that red box with the rabbit painted on the side, it seems fishy".

Once the barriers have been broken and a groundwork has been set, I think my manuscript is full of encouraging and positive thinking...

Respect,
Billy

Just because you have been working less then me or others does not mean you don't have a grasp what is good/bad, but it does mean you don't have the vast experience those of us with decades of shows have.

as for the figuring out bad tricks I think you need to clarify that as I see more as bad presentations rather than bad tricks.

I have seen magicians perform a trick very badly that you, I guess would call a bad trick but I see some one who will put the time and energy into it to make it a great trick.

"It is a poor carpenter who blames his tools."

I have performed 400 shows in one year several years in a row, many years over 200 shows but I am still learning and still working to perfect my show.

again it is not so much there is a problem with your thinking it was the way you were presenting it.

beside much of what you just wrote about props that scream gimmick is used by a lot of newbies who have not grown into seasoned magicians yet.

I think you need more work on breaking down those barriers and get to the encouraging and positive stuff sooner.

just my thoughts

sam

Being my tenth year in magic, this rings very near and true to my situation.



I'd have to agree with this as well. I am absolutely not discounting what you said, what you said is very true. But I think it points out that you are in a position where you are starting to realize what makes for good magic, and separating yourself from what hobbyists consider to be important. However, I don't think you have a full grasp on what a full time pro thinks is important, nor that of a very accomplished magic creator thinks either. Not that I'm either one of those, but I do feel that I have the understanding of both to realize that what your ideas (that you've expressed) don't amount to being worthy of a book that points out the flaws in modern magic. I'm not trying to be a jerk, just explaining my thoughts on this thread. I definitely think you are well on your way to realizing yourself as an individualized magician, just not to the point of writing a book. Again, focus on improving your self, and lead by example.

David

P.S. I also don't think that you are being one of those jerk magicians trying to point out everyone's flaws, and I think your desire for this book stems from a deeply rooted position of caring deeply about the art. So to that I applaud you.

You know the difference between a clown and a magician? Little kids are not afraid of magicians.

:0)

A lot of what is said here goes double for clowns. And those of us who are clowns who do magic instead of balloon twisting don't have a prayer.

Good discussion. And I agree that most clowns are not very good entertainers or even very professional. But there are some of us who try.

It's the 95% of bad clowns who give the other 5% a bad name.

There are some who have 20 years of experience and there are others who have 1 year of experience 20 times over. Just because one has been performing X number of shows for X number of years does not, in and of itself, make that person a better performer than someone with fewer years of performing experience. I agree there is no substitute for performing in front of "live" audiences, and the knowledge and experience one can possibly gather from those performances is invaluable. There are however those who, by definition, are insane: Doing the same thing over and over again, yet expecting different results.

If one evaluates their performance (and seeks the insights and input from others both inside and outside of magic performing circles) and learns from those evaluations.....and ultimately changes/improves their performance the next time they take the stage....then they can shorten the learning curve immensly. Too often however (in my humble opinion) many performers won't video tape their performance or won't watch their performance and/or won't accept constructive suggestions from others. They frequently say "I don't like to watch myself on tape....". I say "if the audience had to sit there and watch you and your performane, what makes YOU so special that you don't have to watch it"? Watch, evaluate, learn from both your mistakes AND your successes, plan for another show and do it all over again. Using this Kaizen approach to continual, incremental improvement, I believe one can become a very good (or even great) performer in far less than 10 years and thousands of shows. But, sadly, most won't do what they need to do in order to become good. They just keep doing the same things over and over again, assuming that by putting in their time they'll get good through eventual osmosis.

I'm not accusing anyone who has posted previously in this thread of anything. We all chart our own course and create our own path. I'm just suggesting that by working smarter, in addition to harder, greater performance capabilities CAN be had in relatively short time frames. Not in 20, 30 or 40 shows.....but certainly quicker than 10 years and 2500 shows. Just one performers opinion. Your mileage may (and most likely WILL) vary.

Welllll, here's the first advice I would give you Billy, Get Over It!

You're not going to change the world.

There are going to be great, good, average, poor, horrible magicians forever.

There are going to be a billion plus people on the planet who will each have their own opinion on magic and magicians.

You are never going to like everybody and everybody is never going to like you.

You are never going to please everyone and everyone will not be able to please you.

There are no tests to pass or skills to master to call someone a magician and you're not going to change that.

Everyday, there will be someone else that calls themself a magician and you can't stop them.

Sooo, here's the next bit of advice I would give you.

Create your own market and client list doing what it is that you do. If you get work, especially repeat work, then you're doing something right. Forget about what the other guy/gal is doing because you can't change them.

LVMagicAL, I think you said that very well. Excellent post.

The secret to moving ahead is to simply use the experience of others to avoid mistakes and save time.

Tom

PS: You can become a doctor in eight years.