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kambiz
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The conscious actions that I take are determined by the education that I have received. Consciously practice those actions and you are in total conscious control of yourself. Practice consciously for long enough, then you will master those actions by carrying them out subconsciously/intuitively/automatically.

So, your education (whether its spiritual or material education) controls you....

My humble opinion, of course....

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
gdw
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Smile
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
kambiz
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Gdw, I assume the rolling of eyes implies I have been too deterministic for you lol

What are you looking for exactly? I thinking more clarity will help guide the discussion in the direction you wish to go....maybe?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
LobowolfXXX
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A god came to a man
And said to him thus:
“I have an apple
“It is a glorious apple
“Aye, I swear by my ancestors
“Of the eternities before this eternity
“It is an apple that is from
“The inner thoughts of heaven's greatest.
“And this I will hang here
“And then I will adjust thee here
“Thus—you may reach it.
“And you must stifle your nostrils
“And control your hands
“And your eyes
“And sit for sixty years
“But,—leave be the apple.”
The man answered in this wise:
“Oh, most interesting God
“What folly is this?
“Behold, thou hast moulded my desires
“Even as thou hast moulded the apple...


Stephen Crane
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
critter
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Apple Jacks are what popcorn would be if it wasn't awful.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
kambiz
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Lobowolf, there is a huge difference between absolute liberty and true liberty.

In the example you use, God has provided for the true liberty of man (symbolically of course) but man still has the free will to choose to turn away from that guidance. Desireable things driving us towards absolute liberty, such as those symbolized by the apple, are tests intended for us to grow and develop our higher nature. The symbol of absolute liberty is the animal.....

Turning away from the apples of prejudice, greed, decadence etc etc bring us closer to our intended, truly liberal, purpose as humans.

God does not mould our desires at all, we have absolute free will in that regard....

Free will is the foundation of human existence and even God would not change that, ever....

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
gdw
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Quote:
On 2012-01-26 22:27, kambiz wrote:
Gdw, I assume the rolling of eyes implies I have been too deterministic for you lol

What are you looking for exactly? I thinking more clarity will help guide the discussion in the direction you wish to go....maybe?

Kam


No, that's not too deterministic, but we still have choice in spite of our education.
I think my point is obvious, it's YOUR body, no one else's.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On 2012-01-27 07:59, gdw wrote:
I think my point is obvious, it's YOUR body, no one else's.


Say's you. Prove it.
gdw
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Prove that it's someone else's
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
stoneunhinged
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Wow, Glenn. That's a convicing argument.
kambiz
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I think there is an argument to imply that we (and by that I mean our physical and spiritual identities) belong to a Source higher than ourselves. I cannot see any rational argument implying that I belong to another human being, animal, vegetable or mineral however.....

There is no scientific proof that I belong to that higher Source, however, most deistic philosophies imply that the human heart/soul/spirit does not belong to the individual it is attached to....but I don't think any of this changes our inherent rights as humans, whether we belong to ourselves or to a higher higher Source....

Education dictates the number of choices available to us when we wish to direct our bodies (i.e actions) in any specific direction, but in that sense gdw I would agree with you that we are the masters of our own lives (I think my post on free will elaorates on my poistion here)

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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....however let me clarify one component which I feel is important....

We are like a steam ship flowing through the ocean of life, we are in full control of the rudder of the ship only, we can choose to direct the ship to the east or to the west, to the north or to the south, that is the extent of our free will....

....the ship goes nowhere without the steam which powers it, and it is the Higher Source that represents the steam of our ship

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
stoneunhinged
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OK, I'll make an argument:

I think that if I can take control of another person by force, than I have--for all intents and purposes--made them my property.

There. That is an argument. Beats any argument I've read to the contrary in this thread.

I'm going back to my popcorn.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-01-27 03:29, kambiz wrote:

God does not mould our desires at all, we have absolute free will in that regard....
Free will is the foundation of human existence and even God would not change that, ever....


For all practical purposes, I disagree. I believe that free will is incompatible with an omniscient, omnipotent God.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
stoneunhinged
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I can't believe the typos I've made in this thread.

Please excuse me, folks. I'm not myself. Too much popcorn.
gdw
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Quote:
On 2012-01-27 12:06, stoneunhinged wrote:
I can't believe the typos I've made in this thread.

Please excuse me, folks. I'm not myself. Too much popcorn.


Don't blame yourself. Clearly someone else owned you in those moments, and thus they are responsible for your mistakes.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
critter
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Quote:
On 2012-01-27 11:26, LobowolfXXX wrote:
...I believe that free will is incompatible with an omniscient, omnipotent God.


I feel the same way about popcorn.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
stoneunhinged
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Popcorn is the point. Some smell butter, some smell farts.

What do "rights" have to do with butter, farts, or buttery farts?
critter
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I feel like I should have the right not to have the entire theatre smell like farts every time I pay $15 to watch a movie.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
gdw
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I feel I should have the right TO have the theatre smell like farts every time I pay to see a movie. And by the way, $15, where are you going to the movies?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
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