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kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-01-27 11:26, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-01-27 03:29, kambiz wrote:

God does not mould our desires at all, we have absolute free will in that regard....
Free will is the foundation of human existence and even God would not change that, ever....


For all practical purposes, I disagree. I believe that free will is incompatible with an omniscient, omnipotent God.



Lobowolf, I think my post relating to the steam ship demonstrates that to some extent I agree with you

I suppose that to some extent it depends on your definition of free will. If by free will you mean that one day I choose to fly, then I agree, we have no free will. However, when it comes to responding to man made desires such as shall I make a racist comment or not, then you have complete free will to choose, God does not interfere in these matters, otherwise He would tomorrow give everyone on earth a supreme miracle that will show His face to all, that will give everyone NO DOUBT that He exists and the worlds people's will instantly bow to His every command. No, this is never gonna happen

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2012-01-27 16:58, gdw wrote:
I feel I should have the right TO ...


...and supposedly the cow feels it should have the right its milk. What's the difference?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
gdw
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Kam, I believe Lobo's point was not that you can't fly simply by pure will, but that free will can not coexist with an omnipotent omniscient god. If god is all powerful, and he created us as we are, then, if he is all knowing, would know everything we would do from before he created us. Being all powerful, he could have created us so we would do differently, so everything we do is actually controlled/predetermined by the choice(s) of such a god, therefore, free will does not exist in the same reality as an omniscient and omnipotent god.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
critter
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Don't you guys know how to fly?
What you do is throw yourself at the ground and miss.

I must have told you 42 times by now...
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
magicfish
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Quote:
On 2012-01-25 19:27, gdw wrote:
Mobility, I am speaking of natural rights, as opposed to legal ones, given legal "rights" can be simply decreed, whether they ar
e rights or not.
As such, establishing WHAT rights are would precede enshrining them on law.

There are no such thing as natural rights. In a state of nature, you have no rights. You can be killed, you can be robbed, you can be pillaged and beaten. It is kill or be killed. it is survival. it is hunting and gathering. there are no rights.
There are only rights when you form a society and make laws to protect yourself. This is what you simply have never been able to absorb. You have no rights whatsoever without law.
critter
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Like I tell my kids: I'm the biggest, so I'm always right. Naturally.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-01-27 19:32, gdw wrote:
Kam, I believe Lobo's point was not that you can't fly simply by pure will, but that free will can not coexist with an omnipotent omniscient god. If god is all powerful, and he created us as we are, then, if he is all knowing, would know everything we would do from before he created us. Being all powerful, he could have created us so we would do differently, so everything we do is actually controlled/predetermined by the choice(s) of such a god, therefore, free will does not exist in the same reality as an omniscient and omnipotent god.


Yes but an omniscient God may be infinitely knowledgeable of our actions, but that does not imply He is in "control" of it......we are not the puppets of an Omniscient and Omnipotent puppeteer......

The nature of free will and how it correlates with pre-destiny can be summarized below:


How lofty is the station which man, if he but choose to fulfill his high destiny, can attain! To what depths of degradation he can sink, depths which the meanest of creatures have never reached! Seize, O friends, the chance which this Day offereth you, and deprive not yourselves of the liberal effusions of His grace. I beseech God that He may graciously enable every one of you to adorn himself, in this blessed Day, with the ornament of pure and holy deeds. He, verily, doeth whatsoever He willeth.


So we have been assigned a pre-destined station and capacity, have been given the guidance to fulfil that capacity, yet it is our free will to follow the guidance to the letter, fully, partially, or not at all. Gods omniscience implies that He knows our destined capacity and what path we will take to reach that destiny, however He in no way influences it, except under exceptional circumstances, and that's only because He can... "He doeth as He doeth....."


Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
LobowolfXXX
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This is a subject that can (and does) fill many books. So let me just say...I understand your position; I just don't agree with it.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On 2012-01-28 02:00, magicfish wrote:

There are no such thing as natural rights. In a state of nature, you have no rights. You can be killed, you can be robbed, you can be pillaged and beaten. It is kill or be killed. it is survival. it is hunting and gathering. there are no rights.


Uh, wrong.

You would have exactly that: the "right" to kill, be killed, rob, be robbed, pillage or be pillaged. The "right" to survival is precisely where the modern theories (read: Hobbes, Locke, et al) regarding natural rights begin.

Now, if you go back to Aristotle....

:pop:
magicfish
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My highschool History projects were done about Locke and Hobbes. I hear what youre saying. but I mean it differently. In a state of nature I don't have a right not to be eaten by a predator, or murdered by an attacker.
With a constitution, I have the right not to be killed by another person.
LobowolfXXX
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It sounds as though the dispute (at least with respect to Magicfish's comments) is whether or not the only rights that exist are legal rights. IMO, there are others.

It's a bit curious that you would rely on the Constitution as the source of rights, when the founding fathers, by their own words, claimed not to be creating rights, but to operate from the first principle that there ARE other inherent rights.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
critter
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In some cultures where cannibalism is the tradition, the natives are disgusted by the act. Reports from funerals in these cultures have told of natives pretending to eat their piece, but actually palming and discarding it.
Not sure if that's relevant, but it's cool.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
magicfish
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Quote:
On 2012-01-28 13:58, LobowolfXXX wrote:
It sounds as though the dispute (at least with respect to Magicfish's comments) is whether or not the only rights that exist are legal rights. IMO, there are others.

It's a bit curious that you would rely on the Constitution as the source of rights, when the founding fathers, by their own words, claimed not to be creating rights, but to operate from the first principle that there ARE other inherent rights.

My founding fathers were the fathers of confederation.
and yes, I rely on The Canadian charter of rights and freedoms.
magicfish
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Quote:
On 2012-01-28 13:58, LobowolfXXX wrote:
It sounds as though the dispute (at least with respect to Magicfish's comments) is whether or not the only rights that exist are legal rights. IMO, there are others.

It's a bit curious that you would rely on the Constitution as the source of rights, when the founding fathers, by their own words, claimed not to be creating rights, but to operate from the first principle that there ARE other inherent rights.

My founding fathers were the fathers of confederation.
and yes, I rely on The Canadian charter of rights and freedoms.
magicfish
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When I'm in the bush I rely on survival. No rights in the bush. its survive or die.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-01-28 14:07, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-01-28 13:58, LobowolfXXX wrote:
It sounds as though the dispute (at least with respect to Magicfish's comments) is whether or not the only rights that exist are legal rights. IMO, there are others.

It's a bit curious that you would rely on the Constitution as the source of rights, when the founding fathers, by their own words, claimed not to be creating rights, but to operate from the first principle that there ARE other inherent rights.

My founding fathers were the fathers of confederation.
and yes, I rely on The Canadian charter of rights and freedoms.



Ah, sorry...different Founding Fathers.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
stoneunhinged
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But you have no "right" to survive?
critter
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I would think you have the right to do something and live, or give up and die.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
stoneunhinged
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Critter, you are a true philosopher. Well said.
tommy
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Like lefts only they have to travel further giving one more time to avoid them.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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