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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » What are "rights?" (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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gdw
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I've wanted to do a thread like this for a while, and the "What is Value" thread reminded me.

So, let's wax philosophical.

I would start by asserting rights are inherent, and all humans have equal inherent rights.
That's not to say they are recognized everywhere on Earth, but we don't want to get political.

So, your thoughts?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
MobilityBundle
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I wouldn't start by characterizing rights as inherent. Although it's perhaps true in some cases, not in others.

There was a legal scholar named Hohfeld who thought deeply about what a right is. He came up with eight distinct concepts that were often conflated by people -- even legally trained people like judges -- all under the term "right." I have to jump on my last call for the day, so I won't give a careful explanation just yet. Fortunately, some guy with a blog did some of my work for me:

http://lsolum.typepad.com/legal_theory_l......e_4.html

I'll check back in later.
critter
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The opposite of "lefts."
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
gdw
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Mobility, I am speaking of natural rights, as opposed to legal ones, given legal "rights" can be simply decreed, whether they are rights or not.
As such, establishing WHAT rights are would precede enshrining them on law.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
mastermindreader
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What are "natural rights" and where do they come from?

How are property rights "natural?" Can one truly "own" anything? (Native Americans, for example, once believed that the concept of anyone "owning" land was ridiculous. That's why they thought it was a bit of a joke to sell Manhattan to the Dutch for a handful of trinkets.)
gdw
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They extend from ones self ownership. As for a right own property, I would love to discuss that. It is one of the few, if not the only thing I am willing to accept the conclusion for practical/pragmatic reasons. I know there have been several societies/tribes that do not believe in the concept of land ownership, but do accept other property rights.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2012-01-25 20:27, gdw wrote:
They extend from ones self ownership....


that's interesting and also not too general or consistent in our culture.

Am I my brother's keeper? Does the state have the right to kill a citizen? Do the people belong to the soil? Dime a dozen?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Steve_Mollett
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If one's 'natural rights' are violated, to whom does one appeal?
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
gdw
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Well, one certainly has a right to defend their rights Smile
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
mastermindreader
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Where does the concept of "self ownership" come from? And who determines what rights naturally "extend" from that?

And who, if anyone, should defend the rights of those who cannot defend them for themselves?
Steve_Mollett
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If you lose all your rights, what's left?

If two wrongs don't make a right, how many do?

Just how many Frenchmen can't be wrong?

and--why do exactly NINE out of TEN agree...?
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
Jonathan Townsend
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Steve you're presuming that the notion has meaning outside of social contract - which has varied over time and across societies.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
gdw
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Quote:
On 2012-01-25 20:46, Steve_Mollett wrote:
If you lose all your rights, what's left?

If two wrongs don't make a right, how many do?

Just how many Frenchmen can't be wrong?

and--why do exactly NINE out of TEN agree...?



:thumbsup: 
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
gdw
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Quote:
On 2012-01-25 20:40, mastermindreader wrote:
Where does the concept of "self ownership" come from? And who determines what rights naturally "extend" from that?

And who, if anyone, should defend the rights of those who cannot defend them for themselves?


Well, who DOES have any, pardon the term, right to say who determines that? If we start with the assumption that no one is inherently above another, then, at the very least we have inherent rights we would have on an otherwise deserted island, but no more than we would have we're there another person on the island with the same inherent rights.
I think that works quite well as a litmus test myself.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2012-01-25 21:00, gdw wrote:...
Well, who DOES have any, pardon the term, right to say who determines that? ...


Your question begs
and assumption that follows is telling.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-01-25 20:46, Steve_Mollett wrote:


and--why do exactly NINE out of TEN agree...?


Because the tenth one is an anarchist? Smile
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-01-25 21:00, gdw wrote:

If we start with the assumption that no one is inherently above another, then, at the very least we have inherent rights we would have on an otherwise deserted island, but no more than we would have we're there another person on the island with the same inherent rights.



You are starting with an arbitrary assumption - and one that is certainly not in accordance with natural law. The "law of nature" is simply that the one who is bigger, stronger and smarter, is inherently above the the one who is smaller, weaker and dumber. It was purely the laws of man that sought, eventually, to remedy what is actually inherent inequality.
gdw
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Then let's try another approach. Who controls your body?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
mastermindreader
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No, let's not. Why not respond to my last post? (But the answer to who controls your body is simple- environment and all of the other natural phenomena referred to above.)
gdw
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Well, for starters, I was responding to Jonathan's.
As for no one bring above another, I was referring to in terms of rights.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
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