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The Magic Cafe Forum Index Not very magical, still... What are "rights?" (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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stoneunhinged
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Well now, that's worth a beer...or two!

Beer for everyone in this thread:

:stout: Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile
:stout: Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile
:stout: Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile
:stout: Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile
:stout: Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile
:stout: Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile
Jonathan Townsend
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Eternal Order
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Quote:
On 2012-01-29 18:40, tommy wrote:
God.


Which/whose god?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
gdw
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Quote:
On 2012-01-30 18:10, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-01-29 18:40, tommy wrote:
God.


Which/whose god?


Zenu.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-01-30 10:27, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-01-30 08:13, stoneunhinged wrote:
Yes, right: man in a state of nature is not yet a member of society (which is their radical departure from Aristotle). But my point is that the only way to understand the way that the word "rights" was used by them (and later, TJ) is to understand what man would actually have in that state. In other words, it is disingenuous to apply some modern definition of the word "rights" to them. They meant what they meant, and not what they didn't mean.

So what did they mean? They meant something like: in nature, you are responsible for your own survival. Your "right" is to survive. Now, I entirely agree with you that this isn't the same meaning of "rights" that we use when talking about, say, voting or marrying or carrying a handgun at the shopping mall. But they nevertheless both used the word "rights" to describe the situation.

By the way, whether you disagree with three or not makes no difference: homo sapiens sapiens is capable of making the connection, so you can still get logically from 2 to 4.


Agreed. We should do this again sometime. Cheque Please.


Agreed agreed

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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Do people still believe that the Christian God is a different God to the Muslim God? How many Gods are there?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Steve_Mollett
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Eh, so I've made
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Quote:
On 2012-01-30 19:34, kambiz wrote:
Do people still believe that the Christian God is a different God to the Muslim God? How many Gods are there?

Kam


How many you want?
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
kambiz
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Well, one would be nice Smile

Twos a crowd really

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
critter
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I'm partial to Thor, as far as gods go.
And if the god is Zeus, he goes all the way.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
magicfish
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I like Odin.
gdw
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Quote:
On 2012-01-30 19:45, kambiz wrote:
Well, one would be nice Smile

Twos a crowd really

Kam


So screw the polytheists then?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-01-30 20:56, gdw wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-01-30 19:45, kambiz wrote:
Well, one would be nice Smile

Twos a crowd really

Kam



So screw the polytheists then?


Whilst I strive to love everyone equally, it is simple to view the reality in religious progression. One may value the fact that the most latest divine guidance seems to articulate a single God.

One must consider the possibility (and high likelihood) that Divine guidance is progressive and to view the guidance of the more recent religions to be closer to the Absolute Truth than the more earlier religions which promoted the concept of polytheism. Religious truth is revealed in alignment with the maturity of the individual, the community and society as a whole.....

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
critter
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Aaaaaaaaand I'm out.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
gdw
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Quote:
On 2012-01-30 23:49, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-01-30 20:56, gdw wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-01-30 19:45, kambiz wrote:
Well, one would be nice Smile

Twos a crowd really

Kam



So screw the polytheists then?


Whilst I strive to love everyone equally, it is simple to view the reality in religious progression. One may value the fact that the most latest divine guidance seems to articulate a single God.

One must consider the possibility (and high likelihood) that Divine guidance is progressive and to view the guidance of the more recent religions to be closer to the Absolute Truth than the more earlier religions which promoted the concept of polytheism. Religious truth is revealed in alignment with the maturity of the individual, the community and society as a whole.....

Kam



Ooohhhhh, so consensus determins reality then. I getcha. So what about when "religion" progressess beyond the current "popular" monotheistic view?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
kambiz
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I don't think I inferred a "consensus"......

I remember as a child I was told by my science teacher, "there are no electrons in the nucleus of an atom", then a few years later I was told that there actually are some nuclei that contain electrons....

If the educational process from our Creator progresses and evolves in the same way as our scientific education then if it progresses beyond monotheism, I will happily accept it with all the rational reasoning that has been given for the progression of religious truth from polytheism to monotheism

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
mastermindreader
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You're right, Kam, you never said anything at all about consensus.

But actually, the only reality that can really be addressed is based on a consensus model as our own sensory limitations prevent us from truly observing objective reality. Those familiar with the writings of Robert Anton Wilson will be familiar with his explanation of so-called "etic" and "emic" realities.

Good thoughts,

Bob
gdw
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Quote:
On 2012-01-31 10:27, kambiz wrote:
I don't think I inferred a "consensus"......

I remember as a child I was told by my science teacher, "there are no electrons in the nucleus of an atom", then a few years later I was told that there actually are some nuclei that contain electrons....

If the educational process from our Creator progresses and evolves in the same way as our scientific education then if it progresses beyond monotheism, I will happily accept it with all the rational reasoning that has been given for the progression of religious truth from polytheism to monotheism

Kam


No, but you implied a "guided" consensus.

Yeah, consensus can be more representative of reality, as well as progression, but areas of consensus in religion, generally, have been representative of delayed acceptance of what science suggests, trends in bigotry, and trends in fantastical beliefs.
Trending towards monotheism isn't any different than trending towards virgin births, man gods, and "sacrifices," all of which were trending well before your "christ."
As for where religion is trending now, in a lot of ways, away.

Any who, this isn't a religious discussion.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
kambiz
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Gdw, I was in no way talking about trends either.....trends generally reflect human interpretation of a specific reality and the human-inspired evolution of that reality over time...

What I am referring to is the uncompromising guidance from God, in the form of the Old and New Testament, the Quran and more recently the Bayan, and the Kitab-i-Aqdas, there is no consensus to be seen here, its just the way it is, the Word of God, you take it on its face value and interpret it for your own edification, or you leave it, the choice is yours......from my understanding there is no rational reason to believe in anything other than One, All-Conquering, All-Unifying, All-Loving God. Were you to study the Holy Words from all these religions it would be a wonderful unifying experience, the reality that there is only one religion will become a serious concept worthy of consideration as a result....I could be the only person on earth and were I to study the Words with an open heart, open mind, I would, without the need for any consensus, develop an understanding that there is only One God. So, in this regard (and maybe ONLY in this regard), consensus does not reflect reality in any way, the Word of God does....

And so it is with rights, if we were to truly believe that God is the Supreme Talisman and Guidance for human life, we would not need consensus to develop laws for human rights, we would only require the Word of God. The Word was not developed out of consensus, (it was revealed and it met all the requirements needed to advance a civilization beyond imagination, just look at the Christian and Islamic civilizations as an example of how advanced they were at the time) yet it forms the foundation for almost all consensus-driven bills and laws for society.

The problems have arisen when non-authoritative human interpretations have modified these foundations to allow them to meet the requirements of an ever-evolving civilization. Yet, if we were to search hard enough, we would note that the Word is renewed from age to age, and were humanity to not be so attached to the Word of the previous age, they would realise that all rights, bills and laws were being catered for and evolving by God Himself. The problems reflecting civilization and why the glorious times disintegrate is purely because:

- humanity evolves,
- the laws of the previous age no longer seem relevant,
- God sends down new guidance,
- humanity rejects it,
- humanity then pursues its own man-made laws based on the guidance from the previous age,
- civilization disintegrates,
- everyone has ideas on how to fix everything that's wrong with the world, then the cycle starts all over again (does this sound familiar?)

Bob, I'm off to read some of Wilson's work, you seem to value his works highly and I do have some of his works on the bookshelf but havent gotten round to it yet, he certainly is a fascinating man.....hopefully we can have some dialogue relating to his thinking Smile

This is not a religious discussion, its a reflection on the history of the world and how it affects our rights, our lives and our future, and the rights of our children....

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
critter
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The following is only intended as counter-point to Kam's comments-
The Noble Eightfold Path:
1.dṛṣṭi- viewing reality as it is, not just as it appears to be.
2.saṃkalpa- intention of renunciation, freedom and harmlessness.
3.vc- speaking in a truthful and non-hurtful way
4.karman- acting in a non-harmful way
5.jvana- a non-harmful livelihood
6.vyyma- making an effort to improve
7.smṛti- awareness to see things for what they are with clear consciousness, being aware of the present reality within oneself, without any craving or aversion
8.samdhi- correct meditation or concentration, explained as the first four jhnas

Again, not sharing this to promote my religion. I believe that everyone's religious preference is their own business.
Only demonstrating how others have managed to promote their own systems of ethics/morality independant of what you are talking about.
It is not necessary that one believe in the same code as you do in order to be a good person.
Various Eastern cultures who have embraced these tenets have tended to do pretty well for themselves.
I am not saying that my way is better than yours, though it is better for me. Yours has value for you and I'm all in favor of that.
So you go ahead and do your thing and I will stick with mine and we'll all have churros sometime.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
kambiz
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I raise my glass to you critter, you are a loving soul and your voice is cherished by all who cross your path, and I have nothing but respect for the points you have raised above. We would truly be a joyous people were we to all to live according the 8 points you have made all of us aware of above Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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Secondly, why is it a counter-point? It builds on everything that I believe in Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
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