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Close.Up.Dave Inner circle Behind you! 2956 Posts |
As the title suggests, I'm wondering what people's thoughts are according to pricing shows according to specific locations of a chain vs. corporate offices vs. private parties. The reason I ask is because on the one hand, I feel obligated to have a sort of "local" price and another price for larger corporate entities, and on the other I want to have a set price for my show no matter who it is that wants to book me. Since I moved to a bigger city, its nice having a lot of options of markets, but its starting to become confusing.
I'll share an example that came up today: I opened a new account at a bank that's part of a national chain. It came up that I'm building up my business as a magician, so the banker wanted my card. The branch manager told me that they're always looking for unique things for their holiday parties, and that they would love to have me. However, I can't help but feel if I were marketing to the main corporate office that my fee would need to be higher. At the moment I've been researching and collecting possible leads for shows at company parties, whether its a big or small company, main office or branch. I wouldn't mind doing a show at a local bank branch (so long as I'm happy with the fee), but I also don't want to go through the hassle of having separate fees for different "levels" so to speak (local and main office). The same goes for local dinner parties; I feel like it would be too complicated to have a private party price and a corporate party price. Perhaps I'm going about this all the wrong way? Is one fee (no matter who is booking you) the way to go? Dave |
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Close.Up.Dave Inner circle Behind you! 2956 Posts |
Regional offices might have been a better term than main office.
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jay leslie V.I.P. Southern California 9498 Posts |
I usually charge more for more people. The main office usually has more people. Any event in a hotel as opposed to a satellite office will also cost more. Driving 80 miles should cost more then 15 miles unless you have a daily rate of several hundred.
All the wasted hours spent parking, unloading, moving the car (because you can't leave it at the loading dock) Pushing a large load all the way down a hall to get to the service elevator (If they even have one that takes you to their area)....... setting-up before anyone arrives and tearing down after they leave. AND making sure you're there before the Disk Jockey so they don't "hog-up" the stage..... and they will. Hotels and grad nights are at least double. The hotel Bonaventure in LA is the worst. Park across the street, roll everything over cobblestones. Keep rolling all the way across the main floor. Carry everything down 42 steps in three loads - Then - back up 42 steps on the way out. So there are other factors to consider then the number of people in attendance. Anyone having an event at the Bonaventure, in the future gets mentalism, a Strait Jacket Escape and they'll need to supply the sound system -for the same price as a larger show in the back room of Dennys.
Jay Leslie
www.TheHouseOfEnchantment.com |
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MichaelDouglas Special user Portland, Oregon 766 Posts |
Dave, thanks for asking this. This question has been in the back of my mind too.
Jay, thanks for the insight. |
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Scott Burton Inner circle 1131 Posts |
My opinion is that you should be priced at one general level / ballpark - and that level will be determined by your positioning decisions. I feel it is unfair to charge a significantly different price for a private party vs. a company event unless there is a real reason for doing such to do with your product.
If one groups hears about the other, will there be negative feelings? If you are doing the same or similar type of show for $250 for a private function but $2500 for a corporate event, there is a real disconnect with your positioning and big trouble can happen if one finds out about the other. Now, if you have a 30 min close-up show for a private event but a 60 min illusion show for a corporate event, then my pricing examples may work and make sense. (just general examples of course) |
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Close.Up.Dave Inner circle Behind you! 2956 Posts |
I think that's the advice I was needing to hear Scott. Thank you. Jay, thank you as well.
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MichaelDouglas Special user Portland, Oregon 766 Posts |
Jay, I understand and agree with your point of increasing your fee when your travel/set-up/headache increases.
Scott, I also understand and agree with what you are saying about having a standard fee and treating everyone equally without regard to the size of the company hiring you when they purchase the same service. What remains unclear to me in everyone's responses is the business sense/ethics of factoring into your fee the audience size. Is what is being said to be understood as meaning that if the show is the exact same, then an audience of 15 is charged less than an audience of 50? I ask this because I've read of magicians who will increase their fee if the head count of people benefiting from the show goes over a certain number. I think what I read was in the context of kid shows. Is this upcharge based on headcount percieved as unfair to/by clients? |
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Close.Up.Dave Inner circle Behind you! 2956 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-01-26 17:08, MichaelDouglas wrote: I think what people meant was: It is better to have a set price, which can fluctuate between audience size, labor involved (such as travel), and other expenses. What should NOT matter is someone's financial resources. Meaning we should not charge less for those who have lower budgets, and not charge more because we know someone has a large one. We should have our price ranges, and only be hired by those who can afford to hire us (whatever that range is). That's what I took from the conversation. I think what Scott meant, overall, was that once we have decided on our worth and price schedules, it will actually show where our marketing efforts should be directed too. I guess that means it would be good to understand who has the budget for your show, and then focus your energy on being visible to that market. This would be better than having a WIDE range of prices, and then trying to focus your energy on appealing to all of them. That would avoid any confusion in our own business organization, and avoid the situation where people find that got the same close up show for $1000 that someone else got for $250. |
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Scott Burton Inner circle 1131 Posts |
Question: why should audience size matter in pricing? Something that needs to be thought about.
Unless your show/service changes, then why should the fee? Unless, of course, a larger audience means additional equipment, time, travel, rehearsal, customization, assistants, or other various results that audience size may have. |
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Scott Burton Inner circle 1131 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-01-26 20:26, Close.Up.Dave wrote: BINGO. You understood my thoughts very well. |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
I agree with Scott, I think you need to be able to justify different fees.
Still, it's weird how restaurants can charge more at night for the same food and nobody complains. Having two menus changes everything. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Scott Burton Inner circle 1131 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-01-26 21:07, TomBoleware wrote: I feel that level of demand for certain date(s) or time(s) is a valid and commonly accepted reason for pricing to fluctuate without level of service changing. If you want to fly home at Christmas, eat during a prime time, or book a magician 2 week before Christmas, people know they will likely have to pay more. Nothing wrong with a variety of pricing - as long as you have a good reasons for the variation that people will understand and accept. |
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MichaelDouglas Special user Portland, Oregon 766 Posts |
I'm in agreement with what's been said about the influences that can affect a fee. The only thing I'm trying to think through and figure out the right answer for my business model is the point on audience size influencing the price.
Here's the logic (or fallacy based on your perspective). The more people there are who benefit from the service that I offer, the more I should benefit in return. I'm not talking about charging by the head. My standard birthday show is scaleable enough to entertain a group of 10 or a group of 300 kids. I just use larger PA and adjust a few things here and there. I walked into a gig at a school once where I was told the head count would be a combined 2 classrooms...approx 50 kids for an after school event. When I arrived I was told I would be performing on stage in a full auditorium for about 300 people to include faculty and parents. I was decieved (I believe intentionally). I did the show anyway. Had I known what they were up to, I'd have charged my school rate which is higher than my small classroom or livingroom show's rate. I know of bands, and dance instructors, dance performers, etc who charge a higher fee when they know the audience is going to be substantially larger for gigs at a convention vs. a small stage restaurant. Can I compare this to a sporting event? When it's just a local event the university get's a certain level of cash for the performance (ticket sales, concessions, some advertising revenue). When that same team delivering the same entertainment is being broadcast on TV/cable, then the school gets a higher fee due to a larger audience enjoying the entertainment. Okay. There's a big differnce between a college sporting event and a kids magic show. However, is the concept the fee adjusting to reflect the audience size somewhat comparable? In my thinking it is. So let me take this logic and apply it to a wedding singer. Is it fare for a wedding singer to charge a lower fee for a wedding of 50 guests and more for a wedding of 300 guests? I'm not sure. The floor is open, so please tear my logic apart. Help me come to peace with this question as it applies to magic. |
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Carducci Special user Denver 543 Posts |
What you're describing is, essentially, a sliding scale fee structure. It's not uncommon in our industry and it's employed for a variety of reasons.
Is a sliding scale structure unethical? Discriminatory? In essence one would be charging clients with larger budgets more for the exact same service that is being provided to clients with smaller budgets. In my opinion, this approach often appears as though one is attempting to squeeze as much money as one can out of an individual. Often this is precisely what it is. I once asked a worker how much he charged and he candidly responded "As much as possible." That is a sure way to alienate your clients. This is not always the case, for example I remember one member the Café who felt it was elitest to charge his corporate rates to private parties because most folks couldn't afford them. His logic was why deny the audience his world class magic because he wanted a high fee every time. Your milage may vary. In my opinion, although there are times when it is practical (or desirable) to adjust your fee, you need to maintain the integrity of your fees. In short, this means having a fee structure and sticking with it. This doesn't mean your fees are set in stone but if you go up or down in price, you need a good reason. Here are some examples of reasons you may choose to lower your fee (without compromising the integrity of your fees):
It's OK to increase your fee too, but have ethical reasons for it. For example:
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Close.Up.Dave Inner circle Behind you! 2956 Posts |
I don't think you're logic is wrong. What was said before was that you can have your set prices, which can include a fees dependent on audience size. I have that at the moment, partly because my stand up show requires I have much more preparation than my close up show, and partly because I feel like it would be benefiting more people.
Entertainment is an intangible product, but I think if more people are enjoying the product then I would think we are entitled to make a bit more money on it. I almost feel like the host of the party is purchasing tickets for each audience member, so if more tickets are sold then why shouldn't you make more money? But perhaps it might be better to have prices according to ranges of people. What was also agreed upon earlier was that you should not price your product based on how much a person's budget is. You should have what you feel your show is worth (which can include by audience size) and then stick to those prices no matter who inquires. Scott seems to feel comfortable pricing his shows with a flat fee no matter the size of the audience (from what I understood). I think most would agree that there's nothing wrong with that if that's the way he likes to run his business. What's nice about that also is you won't feel screwed over if someone does something like you mentioned with that school. It also makes calculating the fee much easier. Michael, when you worked with that school, did you have a contract laid out for them to sign? If so, you at least would be able to prove that there was some discrepancies in the agreement vs. what actually happened. |
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Close.Up.Dave Inner circle Behind you! 2956 Posts |
Carducci, great post. Thank you for that.
David |
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Decomposed Eternal Order High Desert 12059 Posts |
Yes it could bite you if they find out you charging 250 for a private party and them $2500. Hate to answer that one.
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Close.Up.Dave Inner circle Behind you! 2956 Posts |
I think it would be important to note that I (and I'm sure most others) have felt somewhat obligated to fluctuate in price, because it stems from the desire to satisfy a wide range of customers. Not because I would like to be able to charge to the max throughout the wide range of budget levels.
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Carducci Special user Denver 543 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-01-27 15:25, Close.Up.Dave wrote: You definitely don't come across as cut from the same cloth as those I know who mean to gouge and charge "As much as they can." I aim to satisfy a wide range of customers by offering different packages at different price points. The net result is I can satisfy a wide range of customers. Those with larger budgets can get a full production and a show that is, frankly, a lot more work to prepare. If they have a smaller budget, they still get a great (but smaller scale show.) One example, I did a show for a company a few years back. It was a quarterly meeting of a dozen or so managers. They didn't have the budget for the big show so they booked the "bronze" package. This spun off into a small client event a few months later, again only the budget for the smallest package. Six months after that I got a call from the big regional office and they ended up booking the "gold" package. I'm glad I took the approach I did rather than the "the show costs whatever is in your pocket" I would have either lost out on income or lost out on a very good client (maybe both?) I guess my take on the subject is that it's far better to have variable show options, than a variable fee and that you can satisfy a range of clients without compromising your integrity or alienating your clients. |
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David Thiel Inner circle Western Canada...where all that oil is 4005 Posts |
I've read this over and, even though I expect my opinion runs counter to what's being said...
Doing an auditorium full of people is a completely different proposition than doing a living room or an intimate party. You choose different effects. You bring a different system -- you do a completely different show for 1000 than you do for 40. They are apples and oranges. There is also the very real element of PRESENTING to larger groups being different. When doing a big show there are often additional requirements: a tech call, more meetings and conversations with the organizer. I fail to see why I would charge the same across the board...or why any savvy client would have that expectation. Most of my personal and small company clients would faint if I quoted them my full corporate rate. And my corporate clients would consider me "devalued" if I quoted them the same rate for their rates as I do my private groups. The small company and the large corporate client are two completely different entities with different requirements and expectations in terms of time committed. David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.
My books are here: www.magicpendulums.com www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com |
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