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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Incredibly naive question from someone who doesn't play poker for money (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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landmark
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As per the title--

Scenario: You're an average strength poker player. You have two years free to study. Which makes you more money--learning cheating sleights or learning to play better legit poker?
The Dowser
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Is there a third option? There goes two years you will never get back.
AMcD
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Study Poker probabilities, read Poker theory and learn strategies: become a better player!

Cheating? In two years you can't even stack a set properly or get a decent second deal!
tommy
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How are you going to make money at Poker if you don't become a professional?

Read Erdnase.

I would advise learning to deal poker with a view to opening a club and being a pro in that sense.

If you were a son of mine I would advise you keep away from it altogether.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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I would definetly say learn to master the game as best you can. Most of the games are in casinos anyway, so what good is manipultaion going to do for you ? And its going to take a hell of a lot more than 2 years to master anything like Arnold said and its over rated anyway. What are you going to do, play tight on everyones deal but your own ?
Forget gambling, study rocket science, its easier. lol
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If you become a poker dealer you can get a job dealing poker in a casino. You can then use a manipultaion there that will take two minutes to learn. Note there is no IMHO in that.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Sure, you can become a professional dealer and manipulate the game. But the day you're burn, your career is over. And you'll get burn, one way or another.

Last, I second Tony. Money is mainly in the casinos today, as the Hold'em rush seems to collapse month after month. And you have to be brainless trying to cheat casinos using sleights of hand...
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What an incredibly naive thing to say Arnold.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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It's Friday.

More seriously, the original poster seems to be alone. Now, if he plans to be part of a crew, we have a different story...

But maybe I got you wrong?
silverking
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I'm not sure I'd "plan" either of those two scenarios.

Poker:
Problem with straight up Hold'Em is that, without the stone cold nuts you'll at some point in time always get cracked when you least expect it........as happens the world over, in every game, on every single day.
The only variable is whether you'll get cracked when you're in for a small pot, or that one big one where you're all-in and your over-tight gets cracked with quads.
Suddenly, you're broke.......(unless you're one of the really big players, on a team, and are lucky enough to play from a mutual pool of funds).

Of course there's always plenty of play where none of the above happens.......but it will happen to you eventually.

Cheating:
I suppose you could spend two years working an effective sleight like cold decking, stacking, etc......but
Are you going to work alone?
Are you going to have a partner? (suddenly everything you make is divided by 2).
What kind of games are you going to look for?
Can you get into those games in your area?
Are you prepared to travel all over the U.S.A. to find games?
Are you prepared to be labeled a "cheat"?

But like Dowser implied above, life is pretty fricking short as it is.....do you really want to waste two years of it playing poker or learning a couple of card sleights?

You could travel to the Great Basin in Nevada, see the Florida Keys, Big Sur, the Oregon coast, Big Bend in Texas, the Georgia low country, help the homeless in your town, be a Big Brother, work a Crisis Line, spend time with your family............
man you could miss a lot by wasting two years in a dark, damp room with a bunch of card players!

If you do choose one of your two proposed paths though, find a mentor in your chosen field.........as books, the internet, and DVD's won't teach you what you need to know.
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Quote:
On 2012-01-27 15:39, silverking wrote:
...as books, the internet, and DVD's won't teach you what you need to know...

You mean that Steve Forte and Tony Giorgio (just to name two) sells us oil snake then? You don't use Internet to chat or exchange techniques with colleagues? Erdnase's book (I just name the most famous) was a complete swindle?

Geez! In what world do you live?

There's a lot to learn from books, Internet and DVDs!

Sure, you won't learn how to bribe casino employee or how to hack security cameras. You won't be taught how to introduce marked cards in a private club or subtle techniques to signal your partners the cards you hold, nor they'll show you how to setup spying cameras or how to jam video broadcasts, I agree. You'll get very little serious information about how becoming a professional hustler.

But you can't say books, DVDs or Internet are useless.
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Ahhhh, Arnold......when you don't understand something, you really don't understand it.

I find myself wondering if you ever leave your bedroom.

You'll note I didn't use the word "useless" at all (that was your terribly ill chosen paraphrase).......I simply said to the OP based on his question that they "wouldn't teach you what you need to know" ........( I know, I know, your English skills aren't up to actually making sense).

Peace man, but please don't get into it with me unless you really want to get into it with me. I wasn't talking to you specifically, so responding to me directly seems to indicate that you would prefer to end our "truce", and openly share what we really think of each other.
I don't care what you think about anything, and you'll note that I rarely (if ever) comment on things you post.

I'd prefer to keep things as they are Arnold.

Really though man, if you want to type like a punk when you address comments to me, I'll certainly be willing to treat you like that punk you apparently think you are.

Your choice.
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Guys listen. If you become proficient at poker you can definitely make money. And I might add quite a bit of money.

Do you win all the time? Of course not. Will you get cracked on a good hand? Of course. But lets understand something here. Depending on the game size you play in (stakes) lets say anthing from 1 2 no limit to 25 50 no limit you are going to make and win a certain percentage of the pots that you stay in and play because you are a better player than the others at the table if you play correctly you will be a winner more than you are a loser. The saying "know when to fold em is very true". You will hit slumps, bad cards, luck of the cards etc. But if this keeps occuring take a step back and see if you are not rationalizing and possibly playing above your head in skill level.

So what this means is that it comes down to that let us say for every hour of poker you play you earn x amount of dollars because of your skill. That takes into consideration your getting cracked on some hands and obviousley sucked out on which is the same thing. If you play 100 hours you should win 100x if you play 1,000 hours you should win 1,000x. The longer the hours played the more consisent you will arrive at an hourly rate of your winnings. But you win enough of those senarios to be profitable. So the more hours you play the more you will win if you are talented enough. But please remember this, for this is extremely important. It is not only your skill at poker table that determines how much you win or lose it is the skill of the people you play aganist which is a much bigger factor. One extremely talented player at a 10 person game will make a heck of a lot more money if the players at the table are just medicore to poor. However put anothher talented player at that table and your winning expectation drops dramaticaly. Play against 9 others of the same skill level as yourself and you might as well flip coins.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
silverking
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Quote:
On 2012-01-27 17:27, acesover wrote:
If you become proficient at poker you can definitely make money. And I might add quite a bit of money.



Although in general terms I agree with what you're saying (especially if you consider $12.00-$18.00 per hour "good" money), if poker was as easy to make money at as you imply it might be, then everybody would be doing it.
To extend that thought, that X% would also have to be OK with spending 12 -18 hours a day (every day) in the mental and physical environment that surrounds playing poker at the level required to actually make money.

(I don't have hard numbers, so X% could be anywhere from .25% to 2%)

I would posit that no more than that same X% of the population has the time, inclination, "poker-sense", and opportunity (as in no mortgage, kids, wife, or serious debts or commitments)to actually make a go of playing poker professionally, and starting from scratch (as the OP seems to imply he would be).

Conveniently, a very limited number of people play poker and make good money at it......likely an amount totaling somewhere near X%.

In a nutshell, wanting to play poker professionally has nothing to do with being able to play poker professionally.
...........some people simply aren't wired to consistently win (even when they have all the data from Sklansky et al)
...........and if you are wired to win, then you may not have the military level of discipline required to maintain consistency over time, something that's required if you play professionally.

And every pro out there has been cracked at some point, something that not everybody will have to resources to recover from.
AMcD
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Leaving my bedroom? What condescension, what contempt... I'm currently in an office by the way and I live in a house, not a bedroom.

You write "as books, the internet, and DVD's won't teach you what you need to know", I conclude that you think those books etc. won't be very helpful to him. I don't think so, therefore I write it. Nothing more. I do think that books, Internet and DVDs have something to say and I really think they have interesting information for the OP. There is no disrespect to you, nothing insulting, I'm just expressing an opinion. Mine.

We don't have the right to make any comment on your words? It's a free forum here and everyone is free to comment, to bring his own experience, to share his knowledge. I personnel find this zone of the Magic Café great. Even when people disagree there's always something to grasp.

YOU made the choice to consider me like a punk, I have nothing against you and I even enjoy reading some of your posts. It's YOUR choice and I have no "truce" with you as I did nothing to you. Keep the things the way you feel like to keep them, it's your choice, not mine.

But please, stop putting in my mouth words or thoughts I didn't write, mean or think! You perfectly know I have nothing against you and that I respect everyone here. Now, if you can get my English, we can talk in French, Spanish or Italian. We, punks, are multilingual Smile.
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Quote:
On 2012-01-27 17:53, silverking wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-01-27 17:27, acesover wrote:
If you become proficient at poker you can definitely make money. And I might add quite a bit of money.



Although in general terms I agree with what you're saying (especially if you consider $12.00-$18.00 per hour "good" money), if poker was as easy to make money at as you imply it might be, then everybody would be doing it.
To extend that thought, that X% would also have to be OK with spending 12 -18 hours a day (every day) in the mental and physical environment that surrounds playing poker at the level required to actually make money.

(I don't have hard numbers, so X% could be anywhere from .25% to 2%)

I would posit that no more than that same X% of the population has the time, inclination, "poker-sense", and opportunity (as in no mortgage, kids, wife, or serious debts or commitments)to actually make a go of playing poker professionally, and starting from scratch (as the OP seems to imply he would be).

Conveniently, a very limited number of people play poker and make good money at it......likely an amount totaling somewhere near X%.

In a nutshell, wanting to play poker professionally has nothing to do with being able to play poker professionally.
...........some people simply aren't wired to consistently win (even when they have all the data from Sklansky et al)
...........and if you are wired to win, then you may not have the military level of discipline required to maintain consistency over time, something that's required if you play professionally.

And every pro out there has been cracked at some point, something that not everybody will have to resources to recover from.


First of if you are to be considered a professional poker player that is what you are. Youu play it for a living. You play poker for a minimum of 35 hours a week to 60 hours a week. I am not talking about going to the casion on Friday for ther big 200 buy in. You have to play polker s much as if it is a real job because if youare a pro that is what it is.

Also what do you mean when you say a poker player gets cracked? I am not sure I follow you. If you mean he loses his whole stash there is something definitely wrong there if he is what one would call a pro. If you start with say $25,000 you do not sit in a 25 50 no limit game with your 25,000 at stake to start off your career. If he sits down and loses his whole stash on one game he is definitely not a pro and does not have the mental attitude to play the game on a professional level. I consider myself a semi pro player as I also operate and run a few games of my own but I do play at least 30 hours a week and I have been a winner at poker year after year for over 20 yers and not just holdem
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
silverking
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I'm not sure what you're trying to say in your post, other than you're a semi-pro and you're up after 20 years.
So....congratulations on your success playing poker.

I'm not sure what you wrote had anything to do with what I wrote though Smile
silverking
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So emotional Arnold!, let's take a look at your initial response to my post, and examine it for anything which could inspire me to respond as I did:

"You mean that Steve Forte and Tony Giorgio (just to name two) sells us oil snake then? You don't use Internet to chat or exchange techniques with colleagues? Erdnase's book (I just name the most famous) was a complete swindle? "

I didn't refer to, or imply any of those people, none of them.... not Forte, not Giorgio, not Erdnase. Everything you wrote you created in your head and falsely attributed to me. I don't accept your straw man argument, and will say so each time you attempt to use one in response to something I post.


"In what world do you live?"
The same one you do. And if you choose to speak to me like a punk (as you did here) I'll treat you like a punk.

"There's a lot to learn from books, Internet and DVDs!"
I didn't imply or state that there wasn't. I said that I didn't think any of them would be as beneficial to him as a mentor would be.
So I'm not disagreeing with you........in fact I didn't say anything at all about there not being lots to learn from books, DVD's, or the internet.......anywhere in anything I've posted on the Magic Café.

"You'll get very little serious information about how becoming a professional hustler."
I completely agree, which was 100% the substance of my main point. As you wrote this, you seem to be speaking out of both sides of your mouth. I'm confused when first you imply that there's lots to learn about hustling in DVD's, books, and the internet.......and then in the next breath you say "you'll get very little serious information about how becoming a professional hustler".

"But you can't say books, DVDs or Internet are useless."
As I've already pointed out, I didn't say any such thing, anywhere....ever.
Once again you attempt a lame straw-man argument, and I simply state that your efforts to put words into my mouth, or put forth the straw-man are a total waste of time on your part.


You'll note as well that nowhere did I call you presently a "punk". I did say that if you want to speak to me like a punk ("Geez! In what world do you live?"), that I'd be more than happy to engage with you on those terms. That seems to be a choice that's 100% yours to make.
Frankly, when I do think of you, I just think of you as "Arnold".

You're absolutely free to make address to anything I post. If you do choose to address what I post though....please expect that I'll engage you in further conversation if I feel it warrants it. Attributing words or statements to me that I didn't make, straw-man arguments, etc will always bring me back into the conversation.

You're quite skilled (in every thread you get yourself involved in) at trying to change the meaning of something you wrote previously (especially when you get called out on it)......but in this case I not only know what I wrote, but I know what I meant when I wrote it......and won't have it's meaning re-interpreted by you.

I'll let this go now Arnold, perhaps we both should.
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Play poker on your own Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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Yep Silver, there are a lot to learn about hustling in those books, DVDs, etc., but not about -PROFESSIONAL- hustling. Can you get my point?

As usual, you only consider hustling, cheating, etc. from the professional side. Yet, the OP doesn't talk about professional hustling. You only consider the small bunch of hustlers making their living out of it. But again, there are different ways to swindle people, different goals and different levels. It seems to me you only give credit to the mythical crews cheating casinos for millions. Yes, they exist, we have examples every month. But there are other people cheating too! And it's not because they don't make millions that they are not proficient.

Acesover talks about $200 buy-in games. It's my world, and trust me it's not that easy to cheat them! Me, I understand the difference between the guys described by Cagliostro (for example) and guys like Doc or even me. I have no trouble admitting they are different worlds and I understand that some can be called professional thieves whereas I am more an amateur. So what? Because I didn't go to jail I don't know my side? Because I've never been caught I'm not proficient? Because I don't play $10K games I don't have my word to say? There are different categories, that's all. And because you don't make millions doesn't imply the money you win is not important. If you want to lose $200 every Friday, please, let me know, I'll be glad to take them.

I'm surely not "educated" enough for being a professional cheat, which I don't wanna be! I want a long life and all my bones in good condition. But about swindling amateur/private games, I know a "bit" I think...

Years are passing, and I really have the impression reading your constant disparagement against me, the way you weight every word I write in order to flush out any possible controversy (I really have that feeling) that it's more than disdain you have towards me. But I can't help you about that. I'm really sorry to write it, but I don't clearly see why your advice on Gambling hustling prevails more than mine.

If it pleases you, I won't answer any of your posts anymore. If you could understand how little I care about those pedantic brawls, you would have a true estimation of the size of the Universe. Take a deep breath man, and enjoy life.

Cordially.
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