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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Incredibly naive question from someone who doesn't play poker for money (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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acesover
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Silverking wrote following:

Poker:
Problem with straight up Hold'Em is that, without the stone cold nuts you'll at some point in time always get cracked when you least expect it........as happens the world over, in every game, on every single day.
The only variable is whether you'll get cracked when you're in for a small pot, or that one big one where you're all-in and your over-tight gets cracked with quads.
Suddenly, you're broke.......(unless you're one of the really big players, on a team, and are lucky enough to play from a mutual pool of funds).


My questioning of this is why would you be broke from one hand in a game of NO Limit Holdem? You may lose all the money you have at the table for this game. I myself have yet to see a game except for television where the players put up money in the hundreds of thousands and in some cases a million. But that is television which is not by any stretch of the imagination what we are discussing here.

With all of that said I do not see a pro gettiing into a situation where he puts all of his stach in jeopardy at any one sitting. So he will never get cracked at a game regardless of how he gets cracked. This isn't the wild west we watched in the movies where the guy bets the ranch on a hand and loses

Also I am not saying I am "up" after 20 year of playing poker. That definitely lessens my accomplishments in poker. I have been a substancial winner year after year for that time not just up after all those years. (I did not do it for a living nor do I think I couldhave done it for a living.) Also that was when we were not playing no limit poker and normal stakes were 1,2, 4 and double on an open pair when the games of choice were 5 card stud, 7 card stud and 5 card draw which was usually 3 before the draw and 6 after the draw. Also in retrospectI have been playing poker for over 60 years. Of course the first couple of those years were home games with my friends and family.

In my limited exprience I know of one man has played poker for a living and worked at nothing else. Yes his marriages turned to crap. He is divorced twice as I am sure is a direct result of poker but not for not making a good living for his wife. He had one child with the first wife and I believe that is what triggered the divorce in the first marriage. The reason for mentioning this individual is that I am sure in my limited experience, which I feel is more than most. That if I know of one person doing this I am sure there are many more who make a comfortble living from playing poker.

Also let me point out that in no way did I ever say, as I believe you made refrence that making a living at poker would be easy. It would be no more easy than making a living playing professional golf or playing professional sports of any kind in fact it would be much more difficult as these people are gifted to begin with and just hone these gifts. There are no gifted poker players. It is all earned and learned.


While I said I consider myself for lack of a better phrase a "semi pro" that is a laugh because if I never made a nickel playing poker it would not change my lifestyle. So I am not in a do or die senario. Doing it for a living has to be very difficult and trying on oneself because it is what puts food on the table. With me it is a pleasure that I fully enjoy and am able to make some extra money in the mix. But if I had to do it for a living I am not sure I could because of the pressure involved. However as I said I know one individual who has done it quite suscessfully.

Just to site an analogy that may or may not fit this. You may be an excellent marksman but could you be a sniper?
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tommy
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Scenario: You're an average strength poker player.

What does that mean? Does it mean you break even given average luck or what?

Does it mean if you can find a table with below average players to play with you win?

And so on.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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acesover
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Quote:
On 2012-01-28 09:22, tommy wrote:
Scenario: You're an average strength poker player.

What does that mean? Does it mean you break even given average luck or what?

Does it mean if you can find a table with below average players to play with you win?

And so on.


To answer your questions.

------------What does that mean? Does it mean you break even given average luck or what?----------------

If you are an average payer and play with average strenght players youi will statistically break even. However if you sit down with superior players you are going to lose. I said before that not only does it depend on how good you are but also the ability of your opponents which playes a bigger part.




---------------Does it mean if you can find a table with below average players to play with you win?---------------

Yes you will win in the long run.

Not exactly sure what the "and so on" means in youir post. But to answer your question poor players lose to average players in the long run.

Average players lose to good players in the long run.

Poor players and average players and good players lose to superiour players in the long run.
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stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On 2012-01-27 15:39, silverking wrote:
...find a mentor in your chosen field....


There is wisdom in these words, and not just for poker but just about anything I can think of.
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Quote:
On 2012-01-28 10:28, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-01-28 09:22, tommy wrote:
Scenario: You're an average strength poker player.

What does that mean? Does it mean you break even given average luck or what?

Does it mean if you can find a table with below average players to play with you win?

And so on.


To answer your questions.

------------What does that mean? Does it mean you break even given average luck or what?----------------

If you are an average payer and play with average strenght players youi will statistically break even. However if you sit down with superior players you are going to lose. I said before that not only does it depend on how good you are but also the ability of your opponents which playes a bigger part.




---------------Does it mean if you can find a table with below average players to play with you win?---------------

Yes you will win in the long run.

Not exactly sure what the "and so on" means in youir post. But to answer your question poor players lose to average players in the long run.

Average players lose to good players in the long run.

Poor players and average players and good players lose to superiour players in the long run.


Assuming you're playing in a game with no rake. If there's a rake, average players lose in the long run. You have to be slightly better than average to break even in a game with a rake, just as you have to pick better than 50-50 to break even at sports betting. Other than that, concur. As David Sklansky has pointed out, the number one determining factor in your results is the strength of your opponents. A good player against bad and average players is in better shape than a very good player against good players. Table selection is important.

The other thing I would add, though, is that it can take quite a while to get into "the long run.". See Mason Malmuth's writing on this topic.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-01-27 23:44, acesover wrote:
There are no gifted poker players. It is all earned and learned.


Maybe with the exception of Stu Ungar. I mean when the second tournament you enter is the main event at the World Series of Poker, and you win it, then you come back the next year and win it again in case anyone thought the first time was a fluke....

And poker wasn't even his best game. Jeeeeeeeeeeez.


I think all the "broke on one hand" stuff comes from TV/movies of games that aren't table stakes.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On 2012-01-28 12:47, LobowolfXXX wrote:

Maybe with the exception of Stu Ungar.


Word.
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Not to mention he won the title a third time...

I dunno where I read it, but they said he was almost unbeatable at Gin.
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I see, so

How long is the average piece of string?

First you find yourself an average piece of string. If you want to see if you are taller than the an average piece of string you measure yourself against it.

:)
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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stoneunhinged
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Almost unbeatable is one thing. That Stuey even started with poker because he couldn't get anyone in the entire world to play Gin against him for money is another thing entirely. He was a genious with cards in his hands.

I kind of admire the guy. Smile
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Have you watched "High Roller" Jeff? Many people said it wasn't a great movie, but, personally I think it's a good one. There is a nice Poker Scene. A funny Gin scene too.
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Stu was great Smile
"He must be content to rank with the common herd." - S.W. Erdnase
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-01-28 14:23, stoneunhinged wrote:
Almost unbeatable is one thing. That Stuey even started with poker because he couldn't get anyone in the entire world to play Gin against him for money is another thing entirely. He was a genious with cards in his hands.

I kind of admire the guy. Smile


Yeah, it's really almost impossible to fathom Ungar at gin. The gap between him and #2 in the world might have exceeded any comparison. It was beyond Tiger Woods in his prime. It was beyond Ali. It was beyond Sugar Ray Robinson. The only athletic comparison might have been Babe Ruth.

He was ridiculously good at poker. It's an accomplishment to make the final table in a major tournament; he entered 30 tournaments with a buy-in of $5,000 or more, and forget the final table - he WON 10 of the 30. He was hospitalized after day 2 of a WSOP...they blinded and anted him off the rest of the way, taking his money when he had a forced bet, and he STILL finished in the top 10 - he had amassed that much of a chip lead after 2 of the 4 days. Nobody else won both the World Series of Poker and Amarillo Slim's Super Bowl of Poker - he won each tournament THREE times. It's as if chess wasn't Bobby Fischer's best game. It's so outrageous, it's like when a phenomenal magic tricks gets laughter, because spectators don't know what else to do with it.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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Shows you what a little manipulation can do. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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AMcD
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Hehe tommy.

There is something we don't hear that much though, not many talk about that: champs/pro and cheating. Yet...

OK, it's worth what it's worth but I found interesting what Russ Georgiev said for instance. All can't be false.
acesover
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No doubt Mr. Unger was one of the best poker payers that ever played the game. It would be interesting to see how he would have faired in the large field of players that now play in tournaments. I know for sure he would kick my a__. However today one must go through thousands of players to get to the final table of the WSOP. A lot different than a field of 100 or so players. The game has changed dramatically since his time. May he rest in peace, because he sure did not have it while alive.
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tommy
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I will make you famous. Just put me in the dealers chair and the only thing you will need to worry about is looking too good to be true.

:)
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-01-29 08:39, acesover wrote:
No doubt Mr. Unger was one of the best poker payers that ever played the game. It would be interesting to see how he would have faired in the large field of players that now play in tournaments. I know for sure he would kick my a__. However today one must go through thousands of players to get to the final table of the WSOP. A lot different than a field of 100 or so players. The game has changed dramatically since his time. May he rest in peace, because he sure did not have it while alive.


I'm sure he wouldn't win 1/3 of the big tournaments he entered anymore. I'm also sure he'd make a ton of money.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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Quote:
On 2012-01-29 11:51, LobowolfXXX wrote:

I'm sure he wouldn't win 1/3 of the big tournaments he entered anymore. I'm also sure he'd make a ton of money.

I agree. Good observation.
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Its possible to make a lot of money from the show business side of poker these days. A few of my pals have done so, through sponsorships and all of that. If you go broke on line you don't necessarily go broke; A pal of mine was amazed when he we broke and they asked him if he wanted be put into a big comp for free. From there he did not look back and became the champ of Europe. When you are playing with other peoples money I guess you can't lose. Mind you I will have to check how he is doing now as he his quite crazy with money, it would not surprise me if he had gone skint again today.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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