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edh
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Bob1Dog, Jane Fonda is still apologizing for that.

Balducci, I didn't know that. I thought that he just ran off to avoid going to prison. Interesting.
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On 2012-02-05 16:12, edh wrote:
Bob1Dog, Jane Fonda is still apologizing for that.

Balducci, I didn't know that. I thought that he just ran off to avoid going to prison. Interesting.


All her phoney apologies can't change what she did.
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about? Smile

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On 2012-02-05 16:10, Bob1Dog wrote:
I better quit here because I could go on and on about the Hollywood types who think they know what's best for the rest of us.


Darn straight! Daggone Ronald Reagan...! Smile
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Woland
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The remark about wishing Mr. Polanski had been present in the house formerly rented by Terry Melcher might be interpreted differently; Polanski's friend and fellow Polish expatriate Jerzy Kosinski once said, if memory serves, that he wished he had been present, feeling that things would have gone differently. Admittedly, Wojciech Frykowski's presence did not help.
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On 2012-02-05 14:29, stoneunhinged wrote:
Balducci, no I didn't know all of that.

Maybe when I'm finished with the semester I'll read some more about the case.

Maybe you should post a link or two.

I was hesitant to post any link because it is such a sensitive subject, and I'm sure no matter what I post someone (on one side or the other) will accuse me of some huge bias. But since you were not the only one saying that some of what I mentioned was new to you, here are 2 links ... one somewhat mocking and anti-Polanski and one possibly somewhat sympathetic ... both mention Polanski's time in Chino and the second goes into some detail about the Judge involved:

http://www.sbsun.com/ci_13464136

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people......106.html

I think there are enough leads in the two for you to find more info on your own.

Two more links related to the documentary mentioned in the second article are these:

http://www.slashfilm.com/former-la-prose......defense/

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/20......ibi.html

(I think the last is a "liberal" site but the article is not sympathetic to Polanski ... anyway you can fact check what it says against easy to find articles on the same topic elsewhere.)
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On 2012-02-05 18:54, Steve_Mollett wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-02-05 16:10, Bob1Dog wrote:
I better quit here because I could go on and on about the Hollywood types who think they know what's best for the rest of us.


Darn straight! Daggone Ronald Reagan...! Smile


I wish we had Reagan back to straighten out the mess we're in now... Smile
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about? Smile

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Leland Stone
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On 2012-02-04 13:33, stoneunhinged wrote:
The semester ends in two weeks or so, so I'm stocking up on DVDs for the break. (That and the Fallout New Vegas Ultimate Edition which should appear by the end of the month.)

And I was about to click on "Chinatown" to put in the shopping cart, and I thought, "No." I've got a think about Roman Polanski. I'm not consciously boycotting him or anything like that. I just don't want to put money in his pocket.

Yeah yeah, I figure that I've put plenty of money in the pockets of people of similar character; but I wasn't clearly aware that I was doing it. That might make me a hypocrite.

Still, I have a problem putting money in Polanski's pocket.

Anyone else feel the same way about him or any other artists?

I mean, I can remember people getting upset over Tiger Woods' behavior. But he didn't rape a thirteen-year-old girl, as far as we know, did he?


Yes, there are others who feel as you do about artists and their expressions. I did not watch "Powder," will no longer listen to Michael Jackson music, and even have second thoughts about buying admission to movies starring actors whom I consider to be politically incorrect.

To put it succinctly, it's irrelevant to me how good an artist John Wayne Gacy might have been, I'm not buying one of his clown paintings.

Kind regards,
Leland
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While I understand your general sentiment, isn't it a bit outrageous to compare actors who you consider to be "politically incorrect" with a serial killer like Gacy?

Good thoughts,

Bob
Chessmann
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On 2012-02-05 12:09, acesover wrote:
I admit I am not a psychologist but I just do not see how the two could be connected in any way.


I can easily see how it could. Something as horrible as happened to his wife and unborn child? Definitely could unbalance someone's mind.

Quote:

I mean we can stretch to any conclusion we want. How about he is a no good child molester. Why? Because his mother never bought him a bicycle when he was a youngster and it scared him for life?



Is this what you have to do to make your case? Switch out 'wife and baby murdered' with 'didn't get his bicycle'???

Quote:

Lot of people have gone through tramadic things in their life and have notcommitted such things as a result.



And lots of people have.

Quote:
With that mentality there would be no guilty people in the world it would all be because something happened to them that changed their lives and the devil made them do it.


Who said there would be no guilty people? They still must pay for the consequences of their actions - deservedly so. That does *not* mean that their actions do not have deep/painful psychological roots/causes.

Quote:
It is simple. How about this: He is a child rapist and left the country to avoid prosecution.


All true. No one denied that. What is also being discussed is if it is possible that his past trauma could have resulted in what he did? I think it is within the realm of possibility.
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In all fairness, he said she looked 14.
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Leland Stone
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On 2012-02-09 10:51, mastermindreader wrote:
While I understand your general sentiment, isn't it a bit outrageous to compare actors who you consider to be "politically incorrect" with a serial killer like Gacy?

Good thoughts,

Bob


Now, now, you've noticed the waves but overlooked the ocean.

I described a spectrum, but without ascribing parity to its gradients. The actors whom I consider to be politically incorrect are similar to Gacy in only one way (which was the point of my summation): Neither receive my support, regardless of their artistic merit.
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No. I noticed the "ocean." I said I agreed with your general sentiment. I just don't put actors whose politics I don't like in the same sentence as serial killers. Nor are they even remotely in the same gradient.
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Quote:
On 2012-02-09 11:49, Chessmann wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-02-05 12:09, acesover wrote:
I admit I am not a psychologist but I just do not see how the two could be connected in any way.


I can easily see how it could. Something as horrible as happened to his wife and unborn child? Definitely could unbalance someone's mind.

Quote:

I mean we can stretch to any conclusion we want. How about he is a no good child molester. Why? Because his mother never bought him a bicycle when he was a youngster and it scared him for life?



Is this what you have to do to make your case? Switch out 'wife and baby murdered' with 'didn't get his bicycle'???

Quote:

Lot of people have gone through tramadic things in their life and have notcommitted such things as a result.



And lots of people have.

Quote:
With that mentality there would be no guilty people in the world it would all be because something happened to them that changed their lives and the devil made them do it.


Who said there would be no guilty people? They still must pay for the consequences of their actions - deservedly so. That does *not* mean that their actions do not have deep/painful psychological roots/causes.

Quote:
It is simple. How about this: He is a child rapist and left the country to avoid prosecution.


All true. No one denied that. What is also being discussed is if it is possible that his past trauma could have resulted in what he did? I think it is within the realm of possibility.

----------------------------------------------
I can easily see how it could. Something as horrible as happened to his wife and unborn child? Definitely could unbalance someone's mind.

So using this in his defense you feel that it caused him to rape a 12 year old? I guess you see some correlation there. I don't. Yet you do not think a young person could not be scarred by not geting a bicycle when all his friends got one and he did not. Smile Because that is what you implied by your post of my substution which is just as ricidulous as your defense for him.

--------------------------------------------
Who said there would be no guilty people? They still must pay for the consequences of their actions - deservedly so. That does *not* mean that their actions do not have deep/painful psychological roots/causes.

When people have the description you describe in your post they are not "guilty". they are sick if it is true. "IF" is the key word here.
If that is the case they do not pay for their actions...they are treated.


--------------------------------------------
All true. No one denied that. What is also being discussed is if it is possible that his past trauma could have resulted in what he did? I think it is within the realm of possibility.

Which bring us back to square one as I said before. No guilty people only people who could have past trauma that caused them to do bad things. So what in effet you are saying that everyone can have this trauma and do bad things and use this trauma as a defense for doing bad things. So if he can use this as a defense so can others. As I said no guilty people just tramatized ones. Yea that works...for the ones who commit atrocities such asa raping a 12 year old child.

Didn't some people try and claim that Hilter was what he was because he was not acccepted as a tallented artist? HITLER POINTS Smile
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balducci
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Not that this excuses his actions, but the girl was not 12. She was at least 13. I think she was nearly 14, but I could be off on that.
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Chessmann
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Aces,

I never said I saw a distinct correlation. I simply said that I DO see how something like he experienced could lead to major problems. Nor am I defending Polanski, which you did not grasp. There is a big difference between looking for emotional reasons behind a crime and absolving someone of guilt. You are the one who substiuted murder for not getting a bike, not I. You seem to feel that searching for psychological reasons behind a crime equates always to a defense. It does not.

You wrote:

"When people have the description you describe in your post they are not "guilty". they are sick if it is true. "IF" is the key word here. If that is the case they do not pay for their actions...they are treated."

People are found not guilty if they are insane. They are not found to be without guilt because they had some past psychological trauma. Polanski is not insane. Therefore, he is considered guilty.

The simple fact remains that many, many people act out for many reasons, psychological trauma included.

You say, "No guilty people...'' I certainly never said that. Of course they are guilty. You are taking this far beyond my argument. My only point was that it is a possibility that Polanski was imbalanced due to the psychological trauma of his wife and child being murdered, and this could have played a part in his later crimes. Are you denying this is even a possibility? For some reason, you seem to want to rule out the possibility that any emotional issues that can lead to a crime. At least, that is how I read you.

Saying that a beaten child who grows up to beat their own child does not absolve his/her guilt, but no one denys the underlying emotional causes.

You say that means "no guilty people". No, it certainly does not mean that. I say they must still be held accountable for their actions, but also that there are reasons for their actions. Those reasons do not absolve anyone of guilt unless they were insane.

Some people may have claimed Hitler did what he did because he wasn't accepted as an artist, but that excuse didn't work, did it? You don't see anyone saying he shouldn't have been held accountable and punished for his actions, do you? Smile

Or, do you think that Hitler was an emotionally well-balanced individual who had no emotional issues which played a role in his crimes? Smile
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There is a difference between an explanation that helps to understand why a criminal might have been motivated to commit a crime, and an explanation that seeks to exculpate a criminal because of an understanding of his motivation.

That is to say, it is interesting to consider how many of Roman Polanski's experiences in childhood and adult life might have formed his character in a particular way. But to understand that in no way makes him innocent. Living together in an orderly community requires that we be responsible for our actions, and that we constrain our actions in certain areas of conduct. For example, no community will long survive if it embraces adultery, murder, envy, and theft. Undoubtedly on at least some level Roman Polanski knew that it was wrong -and illegal- to provide alcohol and drugs to a young teenage girl in order to have sex with her. Knowing his life history may help us to understand why he did not control his fantasies and desires, but that does not wash away his culpability.

W.
Chessmann
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Very well put, and in half the space I needed to use! Smile
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Exactly right. Nor did Polanksi use an insanity defense. He pleaded guilty.
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Quote:
On 2012-02-10 00:28, Chessmann wrote:
Aces,

I never said I saw a distinct correlation. I simply said that I DO see how something like he experienced could lead to major problems. Nor am I defending Polanski, which you did not grasp. There is a big difference between looking for emotional reasons behind a crime and absolving someone of guilt. You are the one who substiuted murder for not getting a bike, not I. You seem to feel that searching for psychological reasons behind a crime equates always to a defense. It does not.

You wrote:

"When people have the description you describe in your post they are not "guilty". they are sick if it is true. "IF" is the key word here. If that is the case they do not pay for their actions...they are treated."

People are found not guilty if they are insane. They are not found to be without guilt because they had some past psychological trauma. Polanski is not insane. Therefore, he is considered guilty.

The simple fact remains that many, many people act out for many reasons, psychological trauma included.

You say, "No guilty people...'' I certainly never said that. Of course they are guilty. You are taking this far beyond my argument. My only point was that it is a possibility that Polanski was imbalanced due to the psychological trauma of his wife and child being murdered, and this could have played a part in his later crimes. Are you denying this is even a possibility? For some reason, you seem to want to rule out the possibility that any emotional issues that can lead to a crime. At least, that is how I read you.

Saying that a beaten child who grows up to beat their own child does not absolve his/her guilt, but no one denys the underlying emotional causes.

You say that means "no guilty people". No, it certainly does not mean that. I say they must still be held accountable for their actions, but also that there are reasons for their actions. Those reasons do not absolve anyone of guilt unless they were insane.

Some people may have claimed Hitler did what he did because he wasn't accepted as an artist, but that excuse didn't work, did it? You don't see anyone saying he shouldn't have been held accountable and punished for his actions, do you? Smile

Or, do you think that Hitler was an emotionally well-balanced individual who had no emotional issues which played a role in his crimes? Smile


I very much appreciate your sensible response to my post. You make valid points. I may have responded to some of your posts with a knee jerk response and for that I am sorry. Which actualy gives credence to your point that some things are done because of an incident. If thought through logicaly my response may have been quite different. Yet it was triggered beause of something I read and responded too. So es it definitely struck and emotional chord in me to which I responded. While this is far from what happened in the Polanski case I do see the correlation.

I cannot imagine what my emotional state would be had that ever happened to my wife and unborn child. I just do not think it would lead to what he did. I also realize after rereading your post that you did not say that.

When dealing with emotions I guess things build and build and some times irrational things happen which are not from one incident but a culmanation of them that finally pushes one over the edge. We often hear the expression he flipped out or he went postal , or he went ballastic.

Again thanks for a rational response and keeping it to a discussion rather than a shouting match (can you even have a shouting match on the internet? Smile ).
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Chessmann
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On 2012-02-10 11:00, acesover wrote:
I very much appreciate your sensible response to my post.


And I, yours.

Quote:
You make valid points. I may have responded to some of your posts with a knee jerk response and for that I am sorry. Which actualy gives credence to your point that some things are done because of an incident. If thought through logicaly my response may have been quite different. Yet it was triggered beause of something I read and responded too. So es it definitely struck and emotional chord in me to which I responded. While this is far from what happened in the Polanski case I do see the correlation.

I cannot imagine what my emotional state would be had that ever happened to my wife and unborn child. I just do not think it would lead to what he did. I also realize after rereading your post that you did not say that.


Hey, in the vast, vast majority of cases, I have no doubt you are absolutely right. I had a very horrible 7-year period with my mother as she battled, first, mental issues that were brought on by wrong medications (wasn't THAT wonderful!), and then followed by a very nasty case of Alzheimer's, where every time I would come visit her, I could hear her as I was riding up the elevator, calling out, "Oh, god, oh, god....!" Then when she would see me, she would burst into tears and plead with me to rescue her from fire, rape, etc...

So, I have my own baggage that directs some of my responses Smile

Quote:
When dealing with emotions I guess things build and build and some times irrational things happen which are not from one incident but a culmanation of them that finally pushes one over the edge. We often hear the expression he flipped out or he went postal , or he went ballastic.

Again thanks for a rational response and keeping it to a discussion rather than a shouting match (can you even have a shouting match on the internet? Smile ).


As long as you don't use ALL CAPS, I guess it's possible. Smile
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