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critter
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Spokane, WA
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Accusing someone you've never met of not caring about their kids is not cool.
At all.

I must be ****ed, I'm breaking my own rule of allowing a cooling off period before responding to some offensive internet comment.

But then, that's most likely what you were fishing for so there's another favor I've done you. I'd say you owe me two now.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Andrew Zuber
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What's "inappropriate" in your eyes, aces, is what's appropriate for someone that is a cross dresser. As Laurie so perfectly put it, forcing them to wear the clothes that society generally deems appropriate for their gender is, in their minds, cross dressing. The time and a place argument is nonsense. Are you saying that these people are allowed to be comfortable in the privacy of their own homes, but should be forced to conform when in public to make you feel more comfortable? It's not as though they can turn these feelings on and off with a switch. It's just as important to them at school as it is at home. It has absolutely nothing to do with what's "appropriate." This isn't play time and it's not a joke to these people. It's a serious issue that can cause depression, anxiety and a number of other psychological issues.

We spend far too much time worrying about what makes US uncomfortable without putting ourself in someone else's shoes. Go back to when you were in high school, and imagine the school board requiring you to wear a dress while on school grounds. How would that have made you feel? And would you really care about whether or not it made your classmates uneasy? Because really, that would have been their problem, not yours. That's what these kids go through - society tries to force them to be something they're not, and why should society care? They're not in that person's head. They don't know what it's like, and frankly it shouldn't be any of their business. If Tommy wants to wear a dress to school because he feels more comfortable that way, who are we to tell him that's not okay?

There was a great series on the Independent Film Channel a few years backs called Transgeneration, about four different college students facing these issues. It was a moving - and very inspirational - look at the struggles they faced.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
critter
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Quote:
On 2012-02-10 22:53, LobowolfXXX wrote:
As a confident, heterosexual guy, you're ok with other confident, heterosexual guys sharing a bathroom with your daughter, as long as they cross-dress?


If they identify themselves as confident heterosexual guys then they wouldn't be sharing a bathroom with my daughter.
A guy wearing a dress is not the same as a transgender. Not always, anyway.
I was thinking that these specific cross-dressers in the article most likely identify as boys, so in any garb they would be using the boys' room in my paradigm.

But the specific question I was answering was
"As a guy are you comfortable with a Cross dresser using a urinal next to you?"
Which had nothing to do with my daughter. She's not me, and she's not a guy, so she doesn't match either of the criteria in the question.
And, of course, we now know that these were not really questions to begin with, but bait.
Which I apparently fell for.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
critter
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For the record, when I wear a kilt I have to use the extra-manly men's room. This one has urinals sunk further into the walls to make room.
Wearing a kilt also doesn't make me Scottish.
I think this is called allegory, but it's past my bedtime, I haven't had any carbs this week, and my parenting has just been insulted, so I may not be thinking clearly.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
magicalaurie
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Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
On 2012-02-11 01:52, Andrew Zuber wrote:
As Laurie so perfectly put it, forcing them to wear the clothes that society generally deems appropriate for their gender is, in their minds, cross dressing...This isn't play time and it's not a joke to these people. It's a serious issue that can cause depression, anxiety and a number of other psychological issues...


Thankyou, Andrew, but Jon inspired my comments. A lot of kids are reported committing suicide over this these days... and those who claim guardianship threatening to officially snuff them with a "dress code". Really, what is going on with humanity in these "progressive" centuries? Kids lives are at stake. These kids have families. These kids are human, does that need to be stated here? Incredulously disturbing.

And Eric, there are plenty of things that are "odd" or "out of the norm" about plenty of people, if you want to drop this into that category. At the end of the day we're all people and this kind of dismissal of people for being born "human" is what's not quite right, here, if I'm being honest, and I am. Thankyou, Simon. Scares me that people seem so used to focusing in a backwards and hateful direction they don't even notice it anymore.
LobowolfXXX
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La Famiglia
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Quote:
On 2012-02-11 01:55, critter wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-02-10 22:53, LobowolfXXX wrote:
As a confident, heterosexual guy, you're ok with other confident, heterosexual guys sharing a bathroom with your daughter, as long as they cross-dress?


If they identify themselves as confident heterosexual guys then they wouldn't be sharing a bathroom with my daughter.
A guy wearing a dress is not the same as a transgender. Not always, anyway.
I was thinking that these specific cross-dressers in the article most likely identify as boys, so in any garb they would be using the boys' room in my paradigm.



Sorry; my misread. Long day.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
magicalaurie
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Quote:
On 2012-02-11 02:23, critter wrote:
Wearing a kilt also doesn't make me Scottish.


Why not? And how do we know it won't make the guy next to you Scottish, huh, critter?
Chrystal
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I absolutely would have no problem with an individual who is transgender, a cross dresser, is gay, or even purple for that matter.
Laurie said it more eloquently. :O)
critter
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Quote:
On 2012-02-11 02:44, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-02-11 01:55, critter wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-02-10 22:53, LobowolfXXX wrote:
As a confident, heterosexual guy, you're ok with other confident, heterosexual guys sharing a bathroom with your daughter, as long as they cross-dress?


If they identify themselves as confident heterosexual guys then they wouldn't be sharing a bathroom with my daughter.
A guy wearing a dress is not the same as a transgender. Not always, anyway.
I was thinking that these specific cross-dressers in the article most likely identify as boys, so in any garb they would be using the boys' room in my paradigm.



Sorry; my misread. Long day.


No problem. I understand long days.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
magicalaurie
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Quote:
On 2012-02-11 00:53, The great Gumbini wrote:
Why is it when we see a cross-dresser we KNOW something is odd or out of the norm? We want to not offend maybe in our comments but we know a Cross-dresser when we see one.


Because the adults whispered it. They said it was a cross-dresser and I heard them 'cuz I always had my listening ears on, Tracey didn't always but I always did. A lot of the adults say girls should wear dresses. Girls should wear pink and boys have to wear blue. Girls play with dolls. They're supposed to. And they should learn to cook soon as they can. And they should crack an egg and be able to drop it in the bowl without breaking the yolk or it's no good. How come? I can catch crickets outside at the barn. I did once and brought one in the kitchen to show my aunt and she screamed. But I showed her I could catch it easy. Then I brought it back outside where I got it from. How 'come she didn't like it? I caught it good. Good thing my mom never told me I have to wear pink, though, cuz I hate pink clothes, mostly. Smile

Image
kambiz
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Perth, down by the cool of the pool
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"The choice of clothing and the cut of the beard and its dressing are left to the discretion of men. But beware, O people, lest ye make yourselves the playthings of the ignorant"
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
magicalaurie
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I heard that. It's real late and I should go to sleep or my mom might get mad. Even if I'm not tired. Smile

<-- Smile
stoneunhinged
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I'm going to surprise all my friends here by saying this: I think (though I'm not sure) that school uniforms are a good idea. I suppose that the uniform could or should be unisex to avoid the issues in this thread.

Adults should be free to choose to live the way they want to live as long as they are no danger to others. But kids in school should be there to learn, not to compare Nikes or tattoos or panties.

School just isn't the right place for this particular fight, IMHO.
magicalaurie
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I'm still awake! Why should people fight? I think clothes are clothes and teachers should just make sure we're wearing some. Sometimes we don't wear our coats outside in the winter and they get upset. I think that might be o.k. but the teacher's still not my mom. Instead of saying girls should wear dresses when I was little Smile what if everyone said boys should wear dresses? Who says? I think if there is a fight it will go on even with uniforms even if they are unisex and I can wear jeans if I want to at school, I think I should too. And I don't think the teacher should tell me not to if I'm wearing jeans and a real shirt. One teacher tried to tell me what I should wear in grade five and she made my mom very mad. And she was bad to my sister. And she took our potato chips away from all of the class. Until the dentist person came one day and that person said potato chips aren't bad for your teeth. Mrs. Stonehouse that was the teachers real name, she tried to say chips were bad but the dentist whatever she was said they weren't. So then Mrs. Stonehouse knew she had made a mistake and the whole class knew, too, and my mom was glad.
magicalaurie
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And how do they know if the unisex uniforms are really unisex? Who told them and how do they know? And now I should go to sleep or I might get in trouble. Even if I'm still not tired. Smile

<-- Smile for real this time.
stoneunhinged
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Hm. Sorry about your insomnia.

Anyway, by "fight" I meant the fight to recognize the dignity of individuals who are compelled or simply choose to live in ways that differ from traditionally defined roles. That's a fight that deserves and continues to require our energy. But how kids dress in school ought not to be a real issue. I'm especially concerned about kids who cannot financially afford to dress as "cool" as the rest; but the issues in this thread would also be less relevant if the kids wore uniforms.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong. I just sort of suspect this. It could be that uniforms would lead to a whole new can of worms.

By "unisex" I just meant that the rigid distinction between boys (with ties?) and girls (in plaid skirts?) seems a bit old-fashioned. I was thinking more along the lines of khakis and blue blazers for everyone. Smile
rowdymagi5
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People just cant let kids be kids. Really, how many elementary school kids want to crossdress? It is their parents forcing their views onto their kids. Kinda like the 8 year old with a tattoo, dad pushed that one on him. Kids don't have the ability to make adult rational decisions like we do.
gdw
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Quote:
On 2012-02-11 07:45, rowdymagi5 wrote:
People just cant let kids be kids. Really, how many elementary school kids want to crossdress? It is their parents forcing their views onto their kids. Kinda like the 8 year old with a tattoo, dad pushed that one on him. Kids don't have the ability to make adult rational decisions like we do.

How many adults do you know who would WANT their kid to cross dress, or deal with gender identity issues?
Seriously, the idea that these types of things are the parents forcing things on their children is one of the most ignorant ideas I've ever heard.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
kambiz
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Sometimes I get the urge to go out naked, however, through education I have learnt that it is disrespecting the nobility of my humanity to do so. I also would not like to be a plaything for the ignorant.

When I was younger I had the urge to have sex with as many girls as I could possibly muster, however I resisted the urge to do so, because I believe sex is between a couple who love each other within a marital institution.

As parents it is imperative to educate our children regarding the nobility of what it means to be human, and how it is natural to get "urges" and provide the child with tools to resist them and to rise above them....

......the rest can be worked out for yourselves Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
rowdymagi5
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Quote:
On 2012-02-11 08:52, kambiz wrote:
Sometimes I get the urge to go out naked, however, through education I have learnt that it is disrespecting the nobility of my humanity to do so. I also would not like to be a plaything for the ignorant.

When I was younger I had the urge to have sex with as many girls as I could possibly muster, however I resisted the urge to do so, because I believe sex is between a couple who love each other within a marital institution.

As parents it is imperative to educate our children regarding the nobility of what it means to be human, and how it is natural to get "urges" and provide the child with tools to resist them and to rise above them....

......the rest can be worked out for yourselves Smile

Kam


Well said!
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