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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » "Medical Intuitives"? Fact , Fiction or Dangerous? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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mastermindreader
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Yes, I'm glad that this topic got redirected to this forum as well. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the performance of ethical psychic entertainment (i.e. mentalism).
critter
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Traditional Chinese Medicine was mentioned in the OP- I don't dismiss all TCM, though I do think that a lot of the magic powdered unicorn snot kind of stuff is bunk.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Jon_Thompson
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Quote:
On 2012-02-15 13:29, Randwill wrote:
Reducing nausea in chemotherapy patients and curing cancers are two different things. If there is evidence that cannabis can cure cancer it seems strange that American pharmacology concerns aren't investing heavily in research for this potential gold mine to them.

My friend Raj is an oncologist at Christie's. The guy can talk for hours about hos work. Cancer is not a fixed target. It reproduces and it evolves - sometimes in mere months - to bypass whatever you do to thwart it. Cancer is the ultimate killer. This is what really frightens me about healers with absolutely no clue about what they're up against blindly spreading potentially lethal ignorance. I really can't stress that enough.

Canabinoids are stationary in terms of their evolution. That's why you can say with some certainty that individual canabinoids with the right molecule shape will suppress certain causes of nausea. You cannot say with any certainty that something so stationary can cure something which, by its very nature, thrives on mutation and change. I can't stress this enough either.

However, miracles do happen. If I can stress this point enough, I'll be understating it.

But miracles by their very nature random. Knowing your enemy and working to beat it or at least slow its empty victory is most definitely not random. And there really is no way to understate that.
critter
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On 2012-02-15 19:36, critter wrote:
Traditional Chinese Medicine was mentioned in the OP- I don't dismiss all TCM, though I do think that a lot of the magic powdered unicorn snot kind of stuff is bunk.


Oops, that wasn't the OP. The first one at the top of this page...
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
dmkraig
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On 2012-02-15 13:29, Sean Giles wrote:

I condemn those that target these truly vulnerable people for a few bucks and a boost to their ego. That is unforgivable.


That often refers to some doctors, hospitals, and pharmaceutical companies.
Note that I specifically did NOT say or imply "all." And, I realize that situations are different in sane countries as compared to some of the policies in the U.S.
However there are some doctors who perform too many tests for extra money or don't pay attention to their patients and do enough tests or the right tests.
There are hospitals that make outrageous billing charges to patients for things like an aspirin or toothbrush.
And finally, while there are some incredible drugs created by some pharmaceutical companies, some of their pricing policies and outright illegal actions...such as paying off doctors to recommend drugs or not reporting tests with negative results...make them worthy of being broken up and sold off.


Quote:
And what of the people that seek out these 'healers' INSTEAD of getting proper treatment? What happens to them when it fails? That's playing with peoples lives...


True, but that's what doctors do every day. That's what drug companies do every day.

I contend that we need good legitimate research and studies on both allopathic and other forms of healing.
Gerry Hennessey
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On 2012-02-15 18:25, docsteve wrote:
The other factor we have to take into account is "regression to the mean".

Most chronic pains and chronic illnesses have relapsing and remitting patterns; often when a patient decides to seek advice elsewhere, they are at a bad extreme. The only possible outcomes are it either gets worse or better in the perception of the patient. If you at any extreme, then obviously you tend to swing towards the opposite side.

Of all our symptoms, the one that responds to suggestion best is pain; even in poor hypnotic subjects (so called). That's a simple fact well known in traditional western medicine. A true "healer" should be able to produce structural change; it would be difficult in this case to comment without a series of x rays whether a structural change has occurred.

Finally, in science we know that you cannot prove a negative; all you can do is collect data which add to one's hypothesis. The scientific paradigm of positivism - the belief that the truth is out there, independently existing, waiting to be uncovered by experiment and scientific method - is only one of many paradigms, that may be or may not be applicable to a particular field. Perceptions of pain, illness, etc may be better catered for in other paradigms, such as interpretivism, etc etc.

Gerry, I'm glad your lady got better.
S

Thank you Steve.

Gerry
"Every discipline effects every other discipline. You can't straighten out the corporation if your closet is a mess" Jim Rohn

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Gerry Hennessey
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On 2012-02-15 18:34, mastermindreader wrote:
Yes, I'm glad that this topic got redirected to this forum as well. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the performance of ethical psychic entertainment (i.e. mentalism).


Bob

That was entirely my error and I requested it to be moved to the appropriate forum.

Best

Gerry
"Every discipline effects every other discipline. You can't straighten out the corporation if your closet is a mess" Jim Rohn

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PhiltheBear
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In the majority of cases people turn to a 'healer' when they've given up hope of conventional medicine providing a cure for a chronic condition. The chances are about the same that whatever happens (e.g. cure/death)it would happen without the intervention of the 'healer'. If you get flu, for example, there are 2 outcomes - you get over it or you die. Conventional medicine can't cure it - but can relieve symptoms. A 'healer' can't cure it either - but can claim credit if you survive. (If you die - he probably got there too late - or some other excuse).

I spent years as an ambulance man (EMT in the US) and as a trainer. If I was in an accident would I want a trained, medically qualified person to help? Or would I want some kind of shaman to wave their hands over me muttering mysterious incantations? After all, if their healing ability is genuine surely something like a severed artery would be a simple thing for them to heal?
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seadog93
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On 2012-02-16 09:53, PhiltheBear wrote:
After all, if their healing ability is genuine surely something like a severed artery would be a simple thing for them to heal?


Really?
Is that the only possibility, that a healer can either easily and effortlessly heal a severed artery or they are frauds and/or self deluded?
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht

"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b
PhiltheBear
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Quote:
On 2012-02-16 14:15, seadog93 wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-02-16 09:53, PhiltheBear wrote:
After all, if their healing ability is genuine surely something like a severed artery would be a simple thing for them to heal?


Really?
Is that the only possibility, that a healer can either easily and effortlessly heal a severed artery or they are frauds and/or self deluded?


Either you are a healer or you aren't. Or perhaps you are half a healer - or a healer that only heals sometimes. Like psychics who get it wrong and say "it only works when....(insert any excuse here)"
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PhiltheBear
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critter
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"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
LobowolfXXX
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On 2012-02-16 14:28, PhiltheBear wrote:
or a healer that only heals sometimes.


Kind of like a doctor.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Jon_Thompson
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On 2012-02-16 14:42, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Kind of like a doctor.

No one's arguing that medicine is perfect. It can't be perfect because everyone is different. You have a choice: you can go to a doctor who has been to a proper medical school and has proved that he has gained a rigorous understanding of anatomy and disease, contemporary treatments and possible prognoses, or you can go to some guy down the street who says all this is woo hoo and believes he has a shortcut. It seems sensible to exhaust the possibilities the former has to offer before you put your faith in the latter, doesn't it?
LobowolfXXX
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On 2012-02-16 15:42, Jon_Thompson wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-02-16 14:42, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Kind of like a doctor.

No one's arguing that medicine is perfect. It can't be perfect because everyone is different. You have a choice: you can go to a doctor who has been to a proper medical school and has proved that he has gained a rigorous understanding of anatomy and disease, contemporary treatments and possible prognoses, or you can go to some guy down the street who says all this is woo hoo and believes he has a shortcut. It seems sensible to exhaust the possibilities the former has to offer before you put your faith in the latter, doesn't it?


Sure, and I wasn't arguing the contrary. I was responding to (and disagreeing with) a specific post that seemed to suggest that the difference between the two was that "alternative" healers are sometimes successful and sometimes unsuccessful.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
seadog93
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So, a doctor can be successful sometimes and not successful other times, but an alternative healer cannot and specifically must be able to deal with severed arteries to have any claim on success.
Is that right from your perspective?
I just want to be clear that this is what you're saying.


As to exhausting western medical science first;
again, why does it have to be one or the other. If someone is so inclined why not (as many do) consult with alternative health practitioners in addition to standard western medicine?
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht

"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b
seadog93
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On 2012-02-16 14:42, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-02-16 14:28, PhiltheBear wrote:
or a healer that only heals sometimes.


Kind of like a doctor.


Lol, yes! Smile
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht

"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b
mastermindreader
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Aspirin, which derives from an ancient folk remedy, doesn't work on a severed artery either. Does that mean it's useless?
docsteve
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On 2012-02-16 16:39, mastermindreader wrote:
Aspirin, which derives from an ancient folk remedy, doesn't work on a severed artery either. Does that mean it's useless?


It does work on it Bob - it speeds up the bleeding, Smile
Maybe not the outcome you want, but it definitely has an effect!
[
docsteve
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You know, if you're not living in a 'grey' world (where nothing is black and white) then I would suggest you probably don't truly understand the data...
[
mastermindreader
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On 2012-02-16 17:53, docsteve wrote:
You know, if you're not living in a 'grey' world (where nothing is black and white) then I would suggest you probably don't truly understand the data...


Well, put.
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