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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts 
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On 2012-02-19 14:44, mastermindreader wrote: I agree with the point about the judges (and I would think that would have to be disclosed and would be clear grounds for recusal). As to the lobbying, I don't know what it's like in other states (though I'd be surprised if it were any different), but in California, the public employee prison guard union is one of the most powerful lobbying groups in the state, and they do the same thing for the same reason(s) as some have expressed concerns for regarding the private companies.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts
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Therefore I would be opposed to those lobbying efforts by the California unions as well.
I remember, as I'm sure you do, the arguments that we used to have in law school about the purposes of punishment and incarceration. The main theories were rehabilitation, retribution, and deterrence. "To increase the revenues of private corporations and the salaries of corrections personnel" wasn't on the list. |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts
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On 2012-02-19 14:59, mastermindreader wrote: I do remember those arguments (somewhat fondly, actually, although unfortunately my worst first-year professor, by far, was for criminal law)...my personal favorite was (and is) incapacitation. And I'm not disagreeing with you (and I understand that you're not disagreeing with me, either); I'm just adding the second half to the equation, lest the casual reader infer that the situation you allude to applies only to the case of privately-run prisons. Expressio unius est exclusio alterius, and all that.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts
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Yep, that too!
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts
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On 2012-02-19 15:09, LobowolfXXX wrote: I love it when you write in Greek! ;) |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts
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The simplest reason for incarceration is just to keep dangerous predators away from their prey. Whether the predators can be rehabilitated or not is a side-issue. Whether they deserve to be punished or not is a side-issue. Whether other predators are deterred is a side-issue. If you can keep a psychopath or sociopath away from the public until he reaches the sixth decade, you will have prevented a lot of suffering.
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts
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Yes, that's the deterrence or incapacitation theory of incarceration. I agree with you as to its being the simplest reason. My only objection is to the idea of "incarceration for profit."
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts
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"Deterrence" actually comes in two flavors. Deterring others is "general deterrence.". That's when you hear about bad guys going to prison, and it sounds like it sucks, so you obey the law. There's also "specific deterrence," which is when you yourself go to prison (or suffer whatever other punishment we're talking about), experience that it sucks, firsthand, and quit committing crimes upon your release.
Simply segregating criminals from society at large is "incapacitation," and it's a good reason for jail/prison.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts
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Yes, you're right. I am using "deterrence' in both senses. Incapacitation is really just the first half of "specific deterrence" for those who will eventually be released.
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts
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Woland, I agree that's the "simplest" reason, of course it requires there be a prey/victim.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts
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Alas, gdw, prey are never in short supply.
Thank you Lobo and Bob for your kind comments. I am not in favor of "incarceration for profit," but if a private manager can do a better job of maintaining and operating the means of incarceration, why not? In a society without prisons, simply segregating malefactors is not an option, so they must be hanged, flogged, or kneecapped. It seems to me that prison is a far milder remedy than those that were in use before prisons were invented. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts
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On 2012-02-19 12:22, Dannydoyle wrote: Not with a stipulation like the 90% capacity thing. I think Bob has it framed very well--whatever the purpose of prison is, it shouldn't be about maximizing profit.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts
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On 2012-02-19 18:42, Woland wrote: Can't argue with that. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts
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On 2012-02-19 10:55, rockwall wrote: The Goons bit is about why I think privatization of a police force is a lousy idea. My way of having fun with some of gdw's idea of having no state police force. But I've also made plenty of posts where I wasn't thrilled with the public police force's use of unwarranted violence as well. No hypocrisy there. If I have to choose, I choose the public police force because they are (theoretically) more accountable to the public. The union issue which I've never mentioned has nothing to do with my preference of one over the other. I would want both public and private forces to be unionized.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-02-19 18:42, Woland wrote: Yes, I was just alluding to those "criminals" who have no victims.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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rockwall Special user 762 Posts
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Why is a public police force more accountable to the public? (theoretically)
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts
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Theoretically, it's because they are directly overseen by elected officials, and, in many cases, police chiefs, sheriff's etc. are actually elected officials themselves. That would make them (theoretically) directly accountable to the public rather than to private employers.
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rockwall Special user 762 Posts
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Well, you've heard the phrase, "You can't fight city hall." It's for that reason that I think that in many ways they are less accountable than a private force would be. That's not to say, I'm in favor of privatizing our entire police force. Just pointing out what I believe to be a problem with the public force.
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts
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Yeah. You can't fight city hall, but you can throw the bums out in the next election. You can't do that to CEOs.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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I like this thread. I am glad we have proven what can be agreed upon once you strip out the agendas and hyperbole on both sides.
If we could just get everyone to see things like this, and not buy into the hype we might elect one or two public officials who actually serve the public once in a while!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Posted: Feb 19, 2012 07:49 pm 
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