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The Magic Cafe Forum Index The Gambling Spot Kennedy Center Deal (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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DavidGold
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So I finished reading The Magician and the Cardsharp yesterday and I have to say I really enjoyed the book, and of course after all the talk about the Kennedy deal I am super enthusiastic about starting to learn the deal, I have always kind of put it off beacuse the deal comes with so much baggage (finger conditioning ect)altough I don't think that will be to big a problem considering I have been a rock climber for about 5 years Smile. So I payed up for Revalation (2008) and am looking forward to the book getting here but I had a couple of questions on the deal in the meantime. First is I heard that the deal uses a weird grip and I was wondering if this is true. Second in my experience with center deals the first 6 months of practice make you feel like a kid picking up a deck of cards for the first time and I was wondering if that is also true with this deal. Lastly I have strong fingers but the book really hyped up the finger strength requierment to do the deal and I was wondering if you really do need that much strength for the deal. An answer to one or all of the questions would be much appreciated.

Respectfully
David
iamslow
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If you're a rock climber, you have way more than enough finger strength...
"Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the face" Mike Tyson
cartouche7
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The grip is not weird at all. You have the deck beveled with four finger at the right side. You need just enough strength for squeezing the bottom half of the deck. But you have to know that this technique is not good for cheating.
tommy
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There is more than one way to skin a cat. You could for example make something up and write a book or would that be cheating. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
AMcD
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What I like with the Kennedy CD, is the look of the deck after the deal... (no way someone figures out something has happened, lol).
Cagliostro
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The big advantage to the Kennedy Center Deal grip is you can also use it to throw a discus, which is a big advantage if you have any interest in entering the Olympics.

Also, in New York City, I noted that some of the guys who throw the pizza dough up in the air and spin it to make the pizza crust platform sometime use the Kennedy Center Deal Grip on the toss.

Other than that, if you are planning on using a center deal for a demo, there are much better and simpler ways to duplicate the deal. If you are planning on using it in a game, make sure you have a paid up life insurance policy for a large amount of money. Your beneficiaries will love and remember you for a long time. Smile
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On 2012-02-16 21:29, AMcD wrote:
What I like with the Kennedy CD, is the look of the deck after the deal... (no way someone figures out something has happened, lol).

I like that also. The only problem is the look of the deal DURING the deal...(no way an observant player can't figure out SOMETHING has happened). Smile
Bobbycash
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Sorry I can't attach a direct link, but if you want to see the deal done fairly well in my opinion there is a video by Jared Kopf on YouTube shot by Jack Carpenter doing the deal. I believe it is under the title 'Jared Kopf and Kennedy'. The grip looks pretty natural IMO
Cagliostro
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Perhaps this is the link Bobbycash is referring to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a6KoN-OLI4

It is okay for a magician move. Note he is standing up and we are looking down at the deck. Sitting down in a game and looking across the table, or from the sides while sitting, would not be so forgiving.

It is okay to learn something like this for demonstation purposes. Takes a lot of work to come up with a fair center deal for demos. The reason it survives to this day is because it was heavily promoted by Dai Vernon. Although I greatly respect Vernon for his advancement of close-up magic and his great contributions in this regard, he was not a hustler nor was he able to get the money himself. He was a magician's magician if you will, which is great. But he definitely was not an expert on real world gambling methods. He tried to learn as much about gamblers' sleight of hand "moves" as he could because in his day those moves were much better than the moves that magicians were using.

There are much better, simpler, safer and more deceptive methods to get the money in a game than the center deal. The Kennedy Center deal is really more of a demonstration move rather than a "get the money" move.

If someone is looking for a challenging demonstration move, I'm sure the Kennedy Center Deal will fit the bill.
Bobbycash
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Yep, that's the video was on my phone couldn't post the link.

In all honesty, I prefer the Wimhurst technique though the video still stands as the best kennedy deal I've seen.
AMcD
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Yes, for demonstrations, for the challenge, etc. For real play it's a different story.

The CD is one of the few moves I don't do (and I won't do, too old now). Oh, I can deal one or two for demo but it's absolutely unnatural for me. The grip, the take, the deal... Besides, it's difficult to use in actual games as procedures may make the setup impossible (I've played games where the dealer wasn't allowed to complete the cut for instance).

There are some manuscripts that worth it I think, like Wimhurst. Sampalis was supposed to release one, but I'm afraid he's as slow for writing as I am Smile. Jason has a cool video too.
LocJ.
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For a magic demo, the goal is to entertain spectators. You want to create the perception that you can do everything with cards. You can deal from everywhere, you can know any card at any position, you can win at any game, etc...

For example, the Steve Forte's demo for the tv show "hidden secret of magic" is perfect. In 5 minutes, spectators think that Steve Forte can realize anything at anytime (and he really can do ! lol)

For a magician, in my opinion, you have to show a absolute full deck control. And the center deal is perfect for that. BUT you are a magician. You can chose between a real center deal or a fake center deal...
Peronally, I don't like to do a center deal (but I like to watch some great center dealer) and I don't want to loose time with this move.
Ask you if this move is really important for you or if you just want to entertain spectators with it. Ricky Jay for his show "Ricky Jay and his 52 assistants" presents a wonderful "center deal" because he has a great story. The acting is great too.

My english is so bad, I hope it's comprehensible.
silverking
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Quote:
On 2012-02-17 09:06, LocJ. wrote:
For a magic demo, the goal is to entertain spectators.........

Which is why, for magic, you don't have to do a center deal at all.
There are a number of routines from high-profile card men that use a pseudo-center deal to great effect.

To learn a legitimate center deal in order to expose it in a magic demo may not be, (IMO) the best use of ones time.
LocJ.
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Yes. That's why I said : "BUT you are a magician. You can chose between a real center deal or a fake center deal".

He is free to learn a center deal if he has some fun with it, or it's possible to work with a fake center deal.

I agree with you. It is just a personnal choice about what he wants to learn or not and what he wants spectators to remember.
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On 2012-02-17 09:06, LocJ. wrote:
My english is so bad, I hope it's comprehensible.

Don't worry about your English. You did a nice job, made some good points and I enjoyed your post.
AMcD
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Also, do not forget that more and more people play cards. More and more people have some basic understanding about actual card games. Sure, the percentage of people able to detect a nicely done deuce or a correct stacking is very low but at the same time, don't hope to fool them with a grip coming from planet Mars (like for CDs in general).

It reminds me a long time ago when I saw a Magician performing a "gambling" demo, it was sort of familial meeting. In the middle of the demo one guy around the table asked the Magician "I don't know about you, but we cut the deck in our card games". Trust me, it was embarrassing, to say the very least. 2 or 3 years ago I've seen more or less the same thing happening with a french guy performing a Hold'Em demo. The guy knew apparently nothing about cuts, burn card, etc. Around the table was a former casino dealer. Another funny moment, lol.
LocJ.
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Quote:
On 2012-02-17 10:42, Cagliostro wrote:
Don't worry about your English. You did a nice job, made some good points and I enjoyed your post.

Cool ! Thank you Mister online dictionary ! Smile
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On 2012-02-17 09:06, LocJ. wrote:
For a magic demo, the goal is to entertain spectators. You want to create the perception that you can do everything with cards. You can deal from everywhere, you can know any card at any position, you can win at any game, etc...

For example, the Steve Forte's demo for the tv show "hidden secret of magic" is perfect. In 5 minutes, spectators think that Steve Forte can realize anything at anytime...

That is a good example. Even though I am not a magician I would think that a magician would or should use any subterfuge necessary to create the desired effect of fooling and entertaining his audience.

For example, Steve Forte is about as skillful a card manipulator of gambling type moves that one can imagine, yet in the show mentioned above, Hidden Secrets of Magic," Forte used a pseudo center deal rather than a real center. Even with his exceptional skill and ability, the pseudo deal was no doubt more deceptive than any real center deal that even he could do. In fact, in addition to fooling layman, Im sure he fooled many magicians also with that deal. Further, he did not hesitate to use about three-quarters of a deck rather than a full deck for the demonstration to facilitate use of the bottom deal during that fake center deal. I might add however, that it takes considerable skill and ability to do this pseudo deal the way Forte demonstrated it.

Darwin Ortiz also has a pseudo center deal where he apparently deals the Aces from different parts of the deck. That deal is clever and very deceptive.

Generally speaking, I think a good pseudo deal is easier, more deceptive and far superior to an actual center deal when it comes to entertaining an audience.
silverking
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A brief aside:

I've never seen a card performance (gambling or otherwise) that even comes close to the one Steve Forte gives in the "Hidden Secrets of Magic" portion of his DVD set.

From Forte's performance personality, his open and polite interaction with the specs, his ability to put across the impression he can do absolutely anything he wants to with a deck of cards, up to and including his ability to use a psuedo-center deal such that it's even more deceptive than an actual center deal........his is the finest card performance I've ever seen.

Anybody who does any sort of presentation with a deck of cards would do well by themselves to spend a few hours of repeated viewings of this Forte footage.
It's a graduate course in what a gambling demo should look like.

It's often repeated by pundits that Forte wasn't a public performer, nor was he a magician.......and although that wasn't his primary undertaking, the evidence put forth in "Hidden Secrets of Magic" is that he could have (at any time of his choosing) stepped in and immediately assumed a position at the top of any field he choose.
LocJ.
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Quote:
On 2012-02-17 14:09, silverking wrote:
A brief aside:

I've never seen a card performance (gambling or otherwise) that even comes close to the one Steve Forte gives in the "Hidden Secrets of Magic" portion of his DVD set.

Have you seen the Derek Delgaudio's performance in spanish tv show ? For me, it is in the same vein of the Forte's demo. I love it. He uses same concepts to leave a feeling of absolute control.
(Cagliostro : for the joke : Derek Delgaudio is the exception which proves the rule. He uses a real center deal !)
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