|
|
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3~4~5~6~7 [Next] | ||||||||||
mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
After a night of drinking you lend your car to a friend so that he can break into a drug dealer's house and steal a safe. Who could imagine that someone might get killed?
|
|||||||||
landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Thanks Bob and Lobo for the relevant case law. From some of Lobo's comments it seems that there has been some back and forth on this. For those of us who are not lawyers, here is some interesting context and some variations by state and country:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
|||||||||
LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-02-22 12:44, mastermindreader wrote: What's the worst that could happen?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
|||||||||
Marlin1894 Special user 559 Posts |
Quote:
And BTW your statement of the obvious is easily flipped around. To wit, of course the prosecutor would say Holle knew they were actually going to commit the crime. What else would you expect him to say - "Yeah, I knew Holle was just loaning out that car to a friend like usual but I needed the conviction to get reelected?" Is that prosecutor an elected offical? |
|||||||||
acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-02-22 12:44, mastermindreader wrote: LOL Or that anything bad could happen. Who would have thunk it?
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
|
|||||||||
acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-02-22 12:44, mastermindreader wrote: Wow the more I read that post the more I cannot stop laughing. GREAT POST.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
|
|||||||||
mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
I know that if I were the prosecutor, that's the exact line I would use to start my closing argument.
|
|||||||||
LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-02-22 13:44, acesover wrote: "We all do stupid @#$% when we're @#$%ed up." - Bradley Cooper as 'Phil' in The Hangover
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
|||||||||
Woland Special user 680 Posts |
No lawyer, but I wonder if Bob & Lobo might not agree that the "mens rea" is not entirely absent . . . the intent to commit a felony is there, if not the specific intent to commit murder.
I am concerned, however, about the complete disappearance of "mens rea" in recently enacted Federal laws. |
|||||||||
LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-02-22 14:46, Woland wrote: Absolutely, there is a mens rea; just not the mens rea for murder. The basic underpinning of the felony murder rule is that there has to be the mens rea for an underlying felony, which is then applied (via the doctrine of "transferred intent") to the murder. It's a bit of a theoretical stretch as compared to the criminal law structure in general, but the point is that one shouldn't escape unintended but foreseeable consequences of bad behavior.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
|||||||||
mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
I agree.
|
|||||||||
balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-02-22 12:59, Marlin1894 wrote: I was probably thinking of District Attorny when I wrote that, but you can alter the sentence appropriately and the main idea remains.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
|
|||||||||
LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
I think for practical purposes, it doesn't matter; the prosecutor may not be an elected official, but he answers to (and takes orders from) one. That's not to say that Balducci's point is a perfect analogy; the defendant can pretty much be counted on to construe his (unprovable) thought process in such as way as to evade liability, but while there may be some political pressure, and that may make the difference in some cases (probably most; prosectuors as a general rule do overcharge, but still), the motivation is not the same, and in the interests of justice, some prosecutors, I'm sure, would not press they issue if they had a good faith belief that the guy didn't know.
But the point doesn't really rest on whether the particular prosecutor himself is elected or not. If it's an important enough case or issue to effect the (elected) D.A.'s future in office, for all intents and purposes, the prosecutor may as well be considered "elected," too.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
|||||||||
Chance Inner circle 1385 Posts |
The question isn't whether the guy was an accomplice to some degree. The question is whether life without parole is the proper sentence.
|
|||||||||
S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-02-22 15:33, Chance wrote: Answering the former goes a long way toward answering the latter. |
|||||||||
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
The law is VERY clear on this point in America. As Bob points out it is EASILY foreseeable that someone could be hurt.
I don't particularly care about "deterance" as an arguement. I don't think too many people who do crimes such as this think too much about concequences. I am saying however that it will deter THEM from doing it again and that is all one can ask from a criminal justice system in my opinion. (Another debate for another time.) balducci you can spin this in any way you try but it is VERY clear in the law. People have tried to spin their way out of it and it just does not help. Even within civil law in places like a lease. For example consider the phrase "Joint & Several Liability" is almost certain to appear in your lease. Example: "All lessees are jointly and severally liable for all obligations under this lease." This means that the landlord can choose to hold you, and only you, responsible for the rent and damages not paid by your roommates. If your roommate leaves town without paying for the holes he punched in the living room wall or without paying his last month's rent, the landlord could choose to sue just you for the amounts your roommate owes. If you pay the landlord, you can turn around and sue your deadbeat roommate for the money--but only if you can track him down. This is not that different. People can and ARE held responsible for their actions in matters such as this all the time.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
|||||||||
Chance Inner circle 1385 Posts |
People can and ARE held responsible for their actions in matters such as this all the time.
I agree. But is this guys actions exactly the same as the actions of the people who went to the house? Is he 100% just as culpable the the other guys? I'm sorry, but this whole "arrest everyone and let God sort them out" just doesn't work for me. |
|||||||||
mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
This is NOT a case of "arrest everyone and let God sort them out."
In this case a jury, not God, sorted them out. They were all found to be accomplices and, if it was charged, co-conspirators. Interestingly, if the underlying offense was NOT a felony, they still could have been found guilty of felony murder if they were found guilty of conspiracy, for the conspiracy itself could be a felony even if its goal was not. |
|||||||||
Chance Inner circle 1385 Posts |
OK, but would he still have gotten life without parole?????
You guys aren't thinking this through. Life without parole is what you give someone when you can't give them the death penalty. Arrests used to be made based on intent. Now everyone is given the maximum possible charges without regard to intent. That's what I meant by my "sorting them out" comment. |
|||||||||
Woland Special user 680 Posts |
How much time is actually served by the average joe sentenced to "life without parole" in California, anyway?
|
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Lend car to friend, friend involved in murder, you get life without parole. (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3~4~5~6~7 [Next] |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.04 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |