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Woland
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Hi Bob,

I think your examples support what I understood Lobo's point to be: the position the President enunciated yesterday is what he's believed all along, and his previous positions were dissembling. In fact, I'd bet that many of his supporters, and more than a few of his detractors, think he was dissembling yesterday, and that he would go farther, against the States, if he thought he could get away with it.
LobowolfXXX
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I don't believe for a second that his position has evolved one iota. If we had a perfect historical truth-o-meter that could verify such things, I would bet almost any amount of money that he has been in favor of gay marriage since long before he entered the political arena. He just waited until he had the agreement of most Americans before he was willing to admit it.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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The only way out of the "Were you lying then, or are you lying now?" thing is "Well, my position has evolved..."

But he was lying then.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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That's one way to spin it.

Funny- still no one has answered my Romney question. Wonder why?
critter
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Meanwhile- less than 20 states have legalized medicinal marijuana, despite overwhelming public support. I suspect more will join as the legislation catches up to the will of the people.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-05-10 11:14, mastermindreader wrote:
That's one way to spin it.

Funny- still no one has answered my Romney question. Wonder why?


Speaking of spin, if you really think his position has "evolved" from being against gay marriage to now being for it, in the last few years, what did you mean when you said that his former position was one of "political pragmatism"?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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Here is Mitt Romney's 1994 letter, during his failed Senate campaign, to the Log Cabin Republicans saying he supports ENDA, ending Don't Ask Don't Tell, and will be better on gay rights than Ted Kennedy. (!!!) Also his pink gay rights flyer (distributed on Gay Pride Weekend) from his gubernatorial campaign in 2002 which states: "All citizens deserve equal rights, regardless of their sexual preference."

From pandering to flip flopping, it's a whole timeline chronicling what you might call his "devolution" on the issue:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/......timeline
balducci
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Quote:
On 2012-05-10 11:28, mastermindreader wrote:

From pandering to flip flopping, it's a whole timeline chronicling what you might call his "devolution" on the issue:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/......timeline

Maybe it is more a case of reverting back to form?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/m......ory.html
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Woland
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Hi Bob,

As a candidate for the United States Senate, Governor Romney wrote a letter in 1994 that said he was in favor of equal rights for gay and lesbian Americans. I don't think it mentioned marriage at all. I don't think you can find any statement by Governor Romney at any time in the past in favor of altering the traditional definition of a marriage. Only if you equate equal rights with changing that understanding would his statements be inconsistent. His views, as shown in the subsequent videos at the link you provided, are quite consistent.
mastermindreader
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You have a point there, Balducci. I guess we'll never know for sure what Mitt really thinks about anything.

Here's an addendum to my last post in response to Lobo's - The President was always solidly in favor of gay rights. The only issue on which he has "evolved" was in deciding, and finally publicly stating, that civil unions - which he always supported - and hetero only marriage created an untenable "separate but equal problem. In the end, I think that conclusion trumped the cautious pragmatism of his past position.
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-05-10 11:37, Woland wrote:
Hi Bob,

As a candidate for the United States Senate, Governor Romney wrote a letter in 1994 that said he was in favor of equal rights for gay and lesbian Americans. I don't think it mentioned marriage at all. I don't think you can find any statement by Governor Romney at any time in the past in favor of altering the traditional definition of a marriage. Only if you equate equal rights with changing that understanding would his statements be inconsistent. His views, as shown in the subsequent videos at the link you provided, are quite consistent.


Really?

What about the word "Equal Rights" means "UnEqual Rights?"
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-05-10 11:40, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-05-10 11:37, Woland wrote:
Hi Bob,

As a candidate for the United States Senate, Governor Romney wrote a letter in 1994 that said he was in favor of equal rights for gay and lesbian Americans. I don't think it mentioned marriage at all. I don't think you can find any statement by Governor Romney at any time in the past in favor of altering the traditional definition of a marriage. Only if you equate equal rights with changing that understanding would his statements be inconsistent. His views, as shown in the subsequent videos at the link you provided, are quite consistent.


Really?

What about the word "Equal Rights" means "UnEqual Rights?" In that same letter he wrote, which I cited above, he also stated that his views were more pro-gay rights than Ted Kennedy's! That sure isn't consistent with the views he's stated on the current campaign trail.
Woland
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Hi balducci, don't you think it is interesting that the press can dig up a 45 year old prep school incident about a man who does not yet have the GOP nomination, but can't be bothered to find the President's college records, law school records, legal practice records, his State Senate records, or his close associations with Billy Ayres and Rashid Khalidi, and even hide the videotape of his remarks at a dinner honoring Khalidi?

Lobo pointed out:

Quote:
The only way out of the "Were you lying then, or are you lying now?" thing is "Well, my position has evolved..."

But he was lying then.


My question would be, what else has been lying about?
mastermindreader
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Back when I was practicing law I was once assigned by the court to represent a defendant who was charged with the exact same hair cutting "prank" that Romney committed when he was a high school senior. The "prank," by the way, is also known as assault and battery. My client got off easy and only had to serve a year at Rahway State Prison.
critter
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I have a scar on webbing of my hand from being stabbed there with a pair of scissors trying to defend myself from a similar "prank."
That said, I sure don't want every stupid thing I did when I was 20 held against me for the rest of my life.
My forebrain wasn't even fully developed yet (that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it Smile )
So it's a good thing I'm not in politics.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
mastermindreader
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Hi Woland-

Regarding Rahid Khalidi, here's a fact check:

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/200......k-obama/

Here's the fact check that debunks the President's alleged "friendship" with Bill Ayers:

http://factcheck.org/2008/10/he-lied-about-bill-ayers/

Sad to see the right bringing up the same tired and false allegations that they used unsuccessfully four years ago.

Nice attempt to deflect the argument about Romney's past positions on gays though.
Woland
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Hi Bob,

I wasn't trying to deflect the argument, just making a side-comment. With respect to your client's case, the facts about the story of Romney's high school pranks have not been established in court.

WIth respect to Romney's past positions, where is the evidence that he changed them?
mastermindreader
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I posted the evidence in the time-line link above. You obviously don't see the same clear contradictions that I do. We both see through different eyes and I respect that. But do you really believe Romney's past claim that he was stronger on gay rights than Ted Kennedy is not completely contrary to the position he is asserting today? In case you don't recall Kennedy's stance on the issue:

Quote:
Unlike other politicians, Kennedy never wavered in his support of gay marriage, voting against the 1996 Defense of Marriage Act and an anti-gay federal marriage amendment...

http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2009/......ghts.php


And yet, again, Romney plainly stated during his failed Senate campaign that he was stronger on gay rights than Kennedy. So how is being against gay marriage a stronger gay rights position than being staunchly for it, as Kennedy unquestionably was?

It's not.

So if Romney was, in fact, stronger on gay rights than Kennedy, he certainly must have supported gay marriage, at least at the time he made the statement.

Obviously, he doesn't support gay marriage today.

Therefore, he either lied about his previous position or he has done yet another "flip flop." After all, when you're pandering to a liberal Massachusetts electorate, you really can't assert the same positions when you later decide to recast yourself as a "very strong conservative."

As to the facts in the assault, there were several independent witnesses, in addition to the victim, who came forward with corroborating accounts. They are all mentioned, with their backgrounds, in the link I posted. Interestingly, when Romney was asked about it, he didn't deny it! He simply said that he didn't remember. I think that that goes completely contrary to the average person's experience. Most people, unless they were somehow mentally challenged, would have no problem remembering whether or not they committed a violent assault and battery when they were high school seniors. (Unless, of course, they did that sort of thing frequently and the details of individual incidents have grown hazy over the years.)

It seems that by saying he doesn't remember, he is tacitly acknowledging that it "may" have happened. So much for his claimed tolerance for gays.

Unless, of course, he has since "evolved" on the issue.
S2000magician
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Quote:
On 2012-05-10 13:32, mastermindreader wrote:
And yet, again, Romney plainly stated during his failed Senate campaign that he was stronger on gay rights than Kennedy. So how is being against gay marriage a stronger gay rights position than being staunchly for it, as Kennedy unquestionably was?

Some people are strongly in favor of gay rights, others are strongly opposed to gay rights. Perhaps when Mitt Romney said that his position was stronger than Ted Kennedy's, he simply failed to mention its direction.
Woland
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Did the Log Cabin Republicans ask Governor Romney about same-sex marriage in 1996? Did they consider it a right?
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