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Chance
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Obama "detractors"? You can't be serious. Calling the President a treasonous foreign infiltrator -- or worse -- (and meaning it) is what you call a "detraction"? Really?
landmark
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Quote:
On 2012-03-06 19:38, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Pre-emptive response in anticipation of Landmark's reference to Jackson's later apology. Yes, he did apologize, and I appreciate that you took his apology to be sincere (and perhaps it was). The apology came after first lying about whether he'd made the remarks, and attributing the story to a Jewish conspiracy against him. But that's all neither here nor there; the reference to Jackson in this context is far less about him than it is about the millions of people who voted for him a few months later.

Well, I don't want to run this argument again, it seems so last year, but thanks for remembering my comments. Just an add-on to say that if you thought that his apology was sincere and if you agreed with his politics, then a vote for him was neither irrational or insensitive.
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On 2012-03-06 19:47, Chance wrote:
Obama "detractors"? You can't be serious. Calling the President a treasonous foreign infiltrator -- or worse -- (and meaning it) is what you call a "detraction"? Really?


Yes, and the reason nobody said any horrible things about Bush was because he was white.
[/irony]
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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Quote:
On 2012-03-06 20:08, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-03-06 19:38, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Pre-emptive response in anticipation of Landmark's reference to Jackson's later apology. Yes, he did apologize, and I appreciate that you took his apology to be sincere (and perhaps it was). The apology came after first lying about whether he'd made the remarks, and attributing the story to a Jewish conspiracy against him. But that's all neither here nor there; the reference to Jackson in this context is far less about him than it is about the millions of people who voted for him a few months later.

Well, I don't want to run this argument again, it seems so last year, but thanks for remembering my comments. Just an add-on to say that if you thought that his apology was sincere and if you agreed with his politics, then a vote for him was neither irrational or insensitive.
. That's a fair point, and a good one.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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On 2012-03-06 19:42, mastermindreader wrote:
I agree with you Lobo. But the post I am responding to gave the impression that racism plays no role at all in opposition to Obama and seems to question whether there really are such things as right wing extremists. They do exist and the racism is out there. And when they loudly oppose everything the President does - even when he takes positions originally offered by Republicans - it's hard to see how racism isn't a factor.


Understood and I agree that it's out there. I don't see the double standard (of positions taken by Republicans) as necessarily racist, though. That happens all the times on both sides. I'm reminded of Bill Maher's election time episode of Politically Correct where he want on a huge diatribe about the stupid, bigoted, self-righteous, moralistic, etc etc Republicans who are against gay marriage on the same show as when he bemoaned the idea that (either new or soon to be) President Obama would out him out of business because he's "perfect.". Never mind that Obama/Biden had the exact same position on gay marriage as McCain/Palin. And while the Republicans attack Obama for things they gave Bush a pass on, the flip side is also true; Obama gets a lot of passes from the left for stuff that they were up in arms over when it was Bush. It's politics, and it's stupid, and it COULD be racism, but I don't see why it would have to be. It's like Clinton/Jones and Thomas/Hill. All most people want to know is, which one's on our side? For a colorless version, there's Scooter Libby and Sandy Berger.

I think that there are lot of racists out there, and, of course, they are allowed to support whoever they want for whatever reason they want, dumb as it may be. I don't think anyone would argue that there are people who voted for McCain because Obama's African American. Of course, there are also people who voted for OBAMA because Obama's African American, too. But the point whether or not that happens, but whether or not it's significant. And in the grand scheme of things, with almost 60 million people voting against Obama (and over 60 million voting for him), I don't think it's at all significant, myself. And nobody's going to prove it with a story about one judge, or photos of 10 or 100 or even a thousand racist signs. Find me a thousand racists, and I'll find you FIFTY thousand people who voted against Obama for each one of them.. You may as well tell me you Aunt Millie smoked and didn't get cancer, so smoking doesn't cause cancer.

Of course, when I say "you," Bob, I don't mean you. I mean....uhhhh...well, anyone in general who WOULD make such a suggestion.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Chance
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Quote:
On 2012-03-06 20:11, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-03-06 19:47, Chance wrote:
Obama "detractors"? You can't be serious. Calling the President a treasonous foreign infiltrator -- or worse -- (and meaning it) is what you call a "detraction"? Really?


Yes, and the reason nobody said any horrible things about Bush was because he was white.
[/irony]


So for you this is nothing more than fair play/fair game sniping between competing political parties. Got it.
Devious
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I am a latino, I believe Obama is also a latino.
Here is why,
* He lives in a house that is not his.
* He spends money that is not his.
* People want to see his birth certificate.
Devious Deceptions
"Gadol Elohai!"
L'Chaim!
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Quote:
On 2012-03-06 20:32, LobowolfXXX wrote:

Of course, when I say "you," Bob, I don't mean you. I mean....uhhhh...well, anyone in general who WOULD make such a suggestion.


I know that. But I'm sure you didn't mean it when you said that no one voted for McCain just because Obama is an African American. I'm sure you meant that MOST people didn't vote for that reason, for I personally know many idiots who voted for McCain precisely for that reason.

The only thing about this issue where I think we disagree is the nature and extent of racism in 21st Century American politics. I agree it was not the deciding factor in 2008, but I do believe it played a bigger role than you seem to think it did, particularly in certain areas of the country and among certain demographic groups where the President's race was clearly a factor and, I believe, a deciding one.

Good thoughts,

Bob
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On 2012-03-06 21:45, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-03-06 20:32, LobowolfXXX wrote:

Of course, when I say "you," Bob, I don't mean you. I mean....uhhhh...well, anyone in general who WOULD make such a suggestion.


I know that. But I'm sure you didn't mean it when you said that no one voted for McCain just because Obama is an African American. I'm sure you meant that MOST people didn't vote for that reason, for I personally know many idiots who voted for McCain precisely for that reason.

The only thing about this issue where I think we disagree is the nature and extent of racism in 21st Century American politics. I agree it was not the deciding factor in 2008, but I do believe it played a bigger role than you seem to think it did, particularly in certain areas of the country and among certain demographic groups where the President's race was clearly a factor and, I believe, a deciding one.

Good thoughts,

Bob


Good catch on McCain. Typed faster than I thought (or vice versa). What I meant to say was that some people voted for McCain because he is Caucasian and Obama is African American, and at the same time, some people voted for Obama because he is African American and McCain is Caucasian. Partly, as you surmise, that it's rare, and also partly that it's not clear to me that as far as 2008 votes go, Obama didn't benefit from the race factor. I know (white) people who voted for him because he is black. When I say "because he is black," I don't mean to suggest that he doesn't have other qualifications; I just mean that I know people who voted for him but would not have if he had the same qualifications and were white. I know that race hurt him in some circles and I know that it helped him others. I'd like to think (and do) that both of those circles are small and getting smaller.

The literal slip of the keypad was, I meant to type that I didn't think anyone would argue that there AREN'T people who voted for McCain [based on race] etc etc
That is to say, of course there are people who did. Fortunately, you're rational enough to know what I meant and intellectually enough not to misrepresent it, so I imagine you've nailed down the salient points in this post. Actually, with you here, I could take a few days off and let you post my arguments while I'm off.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-03-06 20:32, Chance wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-03-06 20:11, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-03-06 19:47, Chance wrote:
Obama "detractors"? You can't be serious. Calling the President a treasonous foreign infiltrator -- or worse -- (and meaning it) is what you call a "detraction"? Really?


Yes, and the reason nobody said any horrible things about Bush was because he was white.
[/irony]


So for you this is nothing more than fair play/fair game sniping between competing political parties. Got it.


I didn't say that it's fair, but I don't think that for the most part it's substantively different from when the target is white. My recollection from the link posted last year where we were all counting instances of racism is that one of the ones were talking about depicted Obama as a Nazi. Google "Bush Nazi," and see how many hits you get. And read some of them. So yeah, it might not be FAIR, and it might be pretty ugly, in many cases, but I do think that overwhelmingly, the people who can't stand Obama can't stand him for non-racial reason, and I think they're treating treating him the same way they'd be treating him if he were white. Which is really similar to the way the people who can't stand Bush treated him.

And I think that many of the same people who complain about the treatment that Obama gets would excoriate a conservative black president or nominee in a fashion every bit as bad as any example you can point to currently coming from the right, if not moreso. There's a segment of the far left that goes apoplectic over prominent black conservatives, as their favorite play - the race card - becomes unavailable.

Your concern, as always, seems to be political ideology and not racism. Still not a word from you criticizing blatantly racist comments from Jackson and Sharpton, yet you harp on other people who don't call out the people of your choosing. If you don't have a dog in the fight, there are TONS of references to Clarence Thomas as an Uncle Tom...why don't you pick out one of those and tell us how outraged you are at the criticism of him?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Bob1Dog
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Quote:
On 2012-03-06 18:40, Chance wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-03-06 17:57, Bob1Dog wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-03-06 15:52, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Condi Rice and Alan Keyes ran for president against Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid.

It would certainly put an end to the rants of lots of folks out there who really believe that folks who oppose President Obama are right wing extremist racists and are angry because there's a black man in the White House. Smile


You mean like the GOP federal judge getting slapped around for sending a racist email last week? You're right, nothing to see here, move along...


I'm sick and tired of folks like you calling folks like me racist with your specific references. You can cite specifics for either side in an argument, but it's the population that matters. You don't know me and I don't know you. And you certainly don't know the population. I worked in the corporate arena for thirty years and promoted black and white folks because they were qualified and passed over those who weren't qualified. You ever done that?
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about? Smile

My neighbor rang my doorbell at 2:30 a.m. this morning, can you believe that, 2:30 a.m.!? Lucky for him I was still up playing my drums.
Chance
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Not true, Bob. I never implied you were in any way bigoted. Woland, yes. You, no. Nor anyone else for that matter.

But you did glide right past the reference to the GOP federal judge. Any opinions you'd like to offer there?
LobowolfXXX
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On 2012-03-07 04:13, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Your concern, as always, seems to be political ideology and not racism. Still not a word from you criticizing blatantly racist comments from Jackson and Sharpton, yet you harp on other people who don't call out the people of your choosing. If you don't have a dog in the fight, there are TONS of references to Clarence Thomas as an Uncle Tom...why don't you pick out one of those and tell us how outraged you are at the criticism of him?



http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=s......IG7okrXw
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Bob1Dog
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I didn't mean to glide by that. I didn't read the link but got your message. Frankly it wasn't worth my time. You're right, there are mean spirited folks on both sides and I could probably come up with another on your side. But I'm not into that. So there is a method to my perceived madness.

And to use your term, you glided over my final sentence/question. Smile
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about? Smile

My neighbor rang my doorbell at 2:30 a.m. this morning, can you believe that, 2:30 a.m.!? Lucky for him I was still up playing my drums.
Chance
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Bob, I just don't see any value in comparing how many folks from various ethnic groups we know and respect. And since I've been to about 35 states and 25 countries, and am married to a Columbian woman, I'm not sure it's a fair fight, as they say.

The judge in the story is not just another guy - HE'S A FEDERAL JUDGE!!! Do we no longer expect our judges and other elected leaders to possess even a shred of dignity and morals any more? Has it come to this, that a sitting judge can "joke" that the President's birth is the result of his mother sleeping with a dog, and we sit back and say, "Ho-hum. So he had a bad day, so what?" Really? This is what America has become? You're OK with that?

Well I'm not. If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything.

Some things I am very happy to be known fighting for and against, and this definitely qualifies.
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It's good to have a pretext for your politics.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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Quote:
On 2012-03-08 03:08, Chance wrote:
Bob, I just don't see any value in comparing how many folks from various ethnic groups we know and respect. And since I've been to about 35 states and 25 countries, and am married to a Columbian woman, I'm not sure it's a fair fight, as they say.

The judge in the story is not just another guy - HE'S A FEDERAL JUDGE!!! Do we no longer expect our judges and other elected leaders to possess even a shred of dignity and morals any more? Has it come to this, that a sitting judge can "joke" that the President's birth is the result of his mother sleeping with a dog, and we sit back and say, "Ho-hum. So he had a bad day, so what?" Really? This is what America has become? You're OK with that?

Well I'm not. If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything.

Some things I am very happy to be known fighting for and against, and this definitely qualifies.


"Do we no longer expect our judges and other elected leaders to possess even a shred of dignity and morals any more?"

That's what I said during the Clinton/Lewinsky years. Nobody seems to care about morals and values anymore.
Bob1Dog
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On 2012-03-08 03:08, Chance wrote:
The judge in the story is not just another guy - HE'S A FEDERAL JUDGE!!! Do we no longer expect our judges and other elected leaders to possess even a shred of dignity and morals any more?


See, there you go again, citing a specific example. You're not paying attention Chance.
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about? Smile

My neighbor rang my doorbell at 2:30 a.m. this morning, can you believe that, 2:30 a.m.!? Lucky for him I was still up playing my drums.
Chance
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Clinton got his comeuppance. So did Lewinsky. Much more than this judge has had to pay.
mastermindreader
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See, there you go again, citing a specific example. You're not paying attention Chance.


Yes, unsupported generalities are far more persuasive than specific examples or facts.

The man is a federal judge who is require to maintain at least an appearance of impartiality. In view of his racist email I certainly would not want to appear before him in court if I were an African American. (And I for sure wouldn't show up wearing an Obama t-shirt.)

I believe that he should at least receive a strong censure and recuse himself from any cases involving racial minorities.
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