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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts 
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On 2012-03-07 20:07, leomagnus wrote: Very astute comment, Leo. |
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leomagnus Veteran user 303 Posts
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On 2012-03-09 20:44, Pop Haydn wrote: Thanks. |
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JESmagic New user Ann Arbor, MI 90 Posts
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This is a very interesting thread...and I couldn't agree more with a lot of the commentary. The problem is that most of us LOVE the cups and balls...and know many different components for each phase; therefore we like to show them off. I have long considered what to do about this, since most people's attention span for a particular magic effect is relatively short (2-3) minutes.
Furthermore, remember that MANY laymen already know the basic principle of the cups and balls because, at one time or another, they got a cheap set of plastic cups-whether in a magic kit, or at the local magic store. Ironically...in my former days as a performer--when I was in my teenage years and used to work in the magic shop at Walt Disney World, I sold literally thousands of sets of plastic cups. I demonstrated only the simplest routine--making the balls penetrate the cups (because it required no sleights). Every kid (or in some instances adult) was shown how to do the trick after they bought it--as is customary in many magic shops. I would be even be bold enough to say that most people who bought the trick grasp the concept of "one ahead"...duh look three cups, four pom poms. Fortunately, for us, few know how to apply the principle beyond what they are taught--which is what allows us to perform the trick and still fool them! Moreover, I am equally surprised at how few people, like those who bought the plastic cups from me...played with them once...and threw them in a drawer, have seen a complete routine, ie with final loads. Therefore, I am not totally miffed at the notion that people remember the final loads, and not 3-4 minute buildup intro and body sequences. So...the question is what to do? We, as magicians who love to perform cups and balls, MUST strengthen our intro and body sequences, right....after all that's how we judge our skill....right?! This is where studying the cups and balls effect comes in....and why it is a lifetime in evolution for a magician. Here are my thoughts (and ramblings), which I realize may not work for everybody. First of all, I consider who am I performing the cups and balls for. Basically, I have organized my performance into 4 conceptual routines: one that I will perform for the layman, one that I perform for magicians, one that I perform for cups and balls performers, and one that I perform for only me. Allow me to elaborate.... The routine I perform for laymen is all about impact and visualization. I keep it relatively short (under 3 minutes) and it is all about getting to final loads. The intro and body sequences are short and quick--with the balls moving in a fashion similar to a coins across or matrix--fast. For example one element usually is "ball under any cup" bang with wand....now all under center cup. I leave a lot out...in case I'm asked to repeat the effect again later for another group. This way, I can "sub in" another intro / body sequence and if someone who saw the previous routine is watching...it won't be the exact same performance. Secondly, the routine I perform for magicians is a little longer. I focus on showing mastered sleights...wand spins...cool cup / ball moves.......demonstrating a mastery of the classic. It is a little more elaborate. I spend more time with the intro and body sequences and focus more on them. Most magicians know that the final loads are coming anyway. Either way, I try to show off my slight of hand skill...chops...etc. This might be the routine I would do, say, if I were in a close up competition--which of course, I don't do anymore....but, well you get the point Third, is the cups and balls routine I perform for magicians who "do" the cups and balls. This is the routine where I boast my best chops--perhaps I do a cup move with a lot of sleights, that the average person wouldn't care about or appreciate, but a cup worker is going to say "cool" or "nice job man". I'm not trying to melt faces with unknown methods--unless I figure something new out--but rather show off my chops to a group that might appreciate it more. The routine changes...and often turns into a...hey I'll show you how I do this...if you teach me how you did that kind of atmosphere. The final routine is the one I perform only for me--which is probably the most important. It's the routine I perform when I'm at home practicing with my 3 way angled practice mirror--and I just let my imagination and creativity wander. This is where I take everything I've learned, read, seen...all the people I've talked to, admired, been amazed by......and try to put it into practice. No restrictions, no rules...and best of all, no mistakes. In other words, this is the essence of all the other performances--it's where I can work on new ideas, try them out, record and review them. If they work...great...if not...that's okay too. It's a "noodling" process, and to parallel one of my other passions--guitar...it's like a jam session. Much of the time it is a practice session of what I already know...but every now and then the stars align...and like that amazing jam session...I come up with something new...or rework something old into a new handling. When we call the cups and balls a classic--this is exactly why.....it is limited only by our imagination....and for me it is a lifelong learning process. Now I realize that this strategy may not work for all...and some may not agree with it, but that's okay. This is an effect that each individual must work on his or herself. Some are content only performing Vernon's routine...others want to expand beyond that. Heck, some people can't even do the the trick at all...but love it for another reason....like my friend who is an anthropology professor--and couldn't perform the trick to save his life. Yet, he loves to read about the history of the effect, studies all the videos.....watches every performance he can, and has amassed a large and impressive cup collection. The cups and balls has something to offer everyone. Okay...so after that long winded response...in my "noodling process" I am constantly working on is how to make my intro and body sequences better...more unique. I also try to look at other ways to do the final load sequences different than others, like Vernon's. I allow myself the time and creativity to come up with something new...but never punish myself if I fall back on what I already know or have mastered. And most importantly...when I go to perform the effect, I look at my audience and tailor the performance to that group. I assure when I perform for my colleagues in the hospital...it isn't the same as when I perform for my neighbors kids! Anyhow, it's late...and I'm on call in the hospital waiting for the next trauma patient to arrive...so I apologize in advance if this response is convoluted. But, as I mentioned earlier, I really enjoyed reading some of the postings in this thread. |
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leomagnus Veteran user 303 Posts
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Thanks for the post JESmagic. And I thought mine was long. LOL
Anyway, I'm totally with you on not trying to show every single cups and balls move invented during the course of the routine, but I disagree on having the whole routine be about getting to the final loads. Now obviously I haven't seen your routine, but I've found that laypeople are often bored to death for the first 3/4 of most routines. And this can be for a number of reasons including: everything being done too fast, the routine going on too long, the routine being repetitive, and it just being impossible to follow for a combination of these reasons. I mean I guess the question is, is the audience engaged and enjoying the routine before the final loads? If so, GREAT! If not, you might want to consider doing less moves, and doing them slower. Again, I haven't seen your routine. Your routine might play great, even at a fast pace. Gazzo's routine is very fast paced, and no one can deny that it's VERY successful. Just as a quick comparison, Dai Vernon's routine was 4 minutes long, and by my count he perform more than 20 effects. Then take Tommy Wonder's routine, his routine was about 3 minutes long including the introduction to the effect, and applause, and he performed 10 effects. Now which routine had more impact on the audience? Tommy Wonder's. Is it fair to have the audience sit through 3 minutes of confusion/mediocrity for the 10-15 seconds of wonder as the final loads are revealed? I don't think so. Now obviously neither Vernon nor Tommy Wonder was guilty of this, but I think Vernon made this routine play for laypeople because of his charm and personality, more than the wonder of the routine itself. His routine has the legendary status it does, because it revolutionized the Cups and Balls as a close-up piece. The loads no longer coming from a servante. However from a more critical angle, his routine went on a bit too long, and was a bit repetitive. I'm being very picky, I know, but we can always work at making routines better. In conclusion, my opinion is that the routine shouldn't be all about the final loads, and we should should work to make the entire routine an all around entertaining, and mystifying experience for our audiences. Cheers! -Leo |
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JESmagic New user Ann Arbor, MI 90 Posts
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Leo,
Try this: develop a routine with no final loads and perform it. Get it so good that people are blown away. Then, add a final load sequence to the routine--and that can be anywhere in the routine. Then review the impact. Just something else to try. |
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leomagnus Veteran user 303 Posts
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On 2012-03-10 16:37, JESmagic wrote: You know, that's actually a very interesting idea which I may try. That would definitely be a surefire way to learn what effects are the strongest. What a way to develop that first 3/4 that I was talking about! Now we're getting somewhere. Great idea! However, just to clear this up for anyone getting the wrong impression, I totally agree that final loads are important to the routine(maybe even essential). In fact, I feel that a final load of some kind, is the best and come to think of it, the only way I know of to end a routine successfully. However, we can't disregard the rest of the routine as nothing but a set-up for the ending. And on doing a final load in middle of a routine, Tommy Wonder did just that in his routine and got great reactions! 
-Leo Posted: Mar 10, 2012 4:52pm I really like the direction this thread is taking. Now we're starting to develop some ideas on how to solve the problems I mentioned! Keep it coming!!!! -Leo |
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Mobius303 Inner circle Lakewood, Ohio 1309 Posts
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Where are we going and where have we been are two questions I ask when practicing my routines for the Cups.
The story you tell and the direction you take are as important as anything else in the routine. Ricky Jay has a history lesson all wrapped up with magical occurences. Tommy Wonder shows us some magic. Vernon gave us structure. Ammar gave us a different structure. These can be the bones with which to make a fuller more robust routine if you so choose. This is a facinating thread with wonderful information but more than that it is chock full of observations. These observations can serve you well if you look closely at what you want to do. These same things can all be said of a chop cup routine....without the final load it is nothing. It is just goofing off. A great cups and balls routine has a definate Begining, Middle and an End. Johnny Thompson's routine is structured great with an awesome bit of theatricality. The routines are not just to set up the ending but that is one way to go about doing it. Maybe that is one reason I like to study many different types of routines. My take on the ending is that the loads are a result of something, that something should be a part of the story and is like the exclamation point of the routine. What can you follow the ending with? Change a cup into a shoe if you want I think Duvivier does something like that. The loads will get the applause though, each and every time. Some do things that are over the top and tend not to play well with a lay audience. That is a big part of learning and studying the routines well, then working them out for your performance style and audience. Leo your asking the right questions. Showcase your talents, do not make the routine too long but make it entertaining. What is entertaining will make it a classic and if it is done well it will become legendary. Tommy Wonder's routine was very entertaining, it was done well and it was quite legendary. Not many have even performed it let alone performed it well. Vernon's routine was legendary and honed to perfection through use. Was it the most entertaining routine? Not to me. I liked watching it but was not entertained by it after the first time. Tommy's routine entertained me more. The Thompson routine is similar to the Vernon one but to me it is entertaining because of how the story is told. The Ammar Routine is entertaining to me as well. Even after you know how it is done, he still has such strong misdirection that I feel like a kid again. The Ricky Jay routine is also quite entertaining to me. The Gertner routine is also very entertaining and I have not seen anyone else do a routine like he does with sound and story. Very entertaining. Leo, I am also curious to know what your sister thoguht of Kent Gunn's routine with multi colored balls called the Fun Shop Cups and Balls routine. That is enough ramblings from me for now. Enjoy, Mike |
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Atom3339 Inner circle Spokane, WA 3242 Posts
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I did Cups and Balls for years without a final load; to refine my handling and presentation. When I finally incorporated a final load, it was not difficult.
And I agree with Larry B. (above) There is always room for more creativity with the Cups and Balls. THAT's why it's a CLASSIC!
TH
Occupy Your Dream |
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leomagnus Veteran user 303 Posts
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On 2012-03-10 23:29, Mobius303 wrote: Thanks for the post. My sister was more impressed with the body of Kent Gunn's routine than she was with a lot of other routines. When he cleanly places a ball on the table, covers it for a second and it vanishes, her jaw dropped. She was fooled by the final loads again, and I got another round of "But where do the big ones come from?!" She liked his presentation as well which surprised me a little bit. Her comment was "he's really funny." The thing I noticed about Kent Gunn's routine was that while his final loads are much more deceptive from a magician's point of view, it got the same reaction as the other routines. I think that using the methods that he does, Kent's routine might be more impressive to laypeople if he produce a large/incongruous load in the middle of the routine as well as at the end. I don't know. Anyway, I actually showed her some of the routines we've been talking about again, and asked her to rank them in order of which she enjoyed the most. That means taking into account both amazement and entertainment. This is what we have: 1.) Tommy Wonder 2.) Jason Latimer 3.) Ricky Jay 4.) Dai Vernon 5. a tie between Paul Gertner and Kent Gunn -Leo |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts
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I'd love to see anyone's no final loadsv&b routine, if anyone has one and is willing to post a video.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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kentfgunn Inner circle Merritt Island FL 1639 Posts
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Leo,
Kent's routine is pretty much engraved in stone, at this point. I wouldn't worry or even conjecture about what could make it better. Structurally the big loads couped with the three colors of balls, pretty much define every part of the routine. Some of the mechanics are interdependant. Feel free to work the routine up and alter it as you wish, for yourself though! I'm glad your sister thought I was funny. I usually get looking after that word. I don't know how valuable listing favorites is. I too am exceedingly impressed by Ricky Jay's routine though. Master Payne is another performer who completely invests himself into a character. He's genuinely funny too. Pete Biro does a great job with the props as well. I remember seeing him on a TV show clip doing the cups. He has charm and a winning, friendly, demeanor I think wins the day. I personally learned what little I know about magic by coming up with my own routine and honing it these last seven years. I learned: 1. What works for others isn't necessarily the best for me, even if they're way better magicians than me. 2. Video cameras, not mirrors will teach you more than you want to know about how bad you really are. 3. Performing in front of a breathing audience is a huge leap if you spend lots of time practicing or rehearsing. 4. Ignore 95% of what you read on magic boards or from hear coming out of the mouths of magicians. (That includes this post!) 5. Be your own biggest critic. 6. Gotta practice just to keep a tough routine up to speed, no matter how well you did it a month ago. 7. Look at the audience, not the cups. 8. Get a script. You have to write it yourself. If you're talking about Houdini's quote, Egyptian tombs and dropping one cup through another . . . well, I won't say what I think. Don't do what a bunch of other magicians are doing. If you do your routine that way, great. Imagine how much more you could be invested in the words you use if you had poured your own heart and soul into those words! 9. Lay peope are way smarter than the average guy with a set of Paul Foxes realizes. 10. Most routines are too long, confusing and performed too quickly. Slow down . . . slow down . . . slow down . . . smile . . . look up from the cups. With genuine love for the art and my favorite trick, Kent |
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Larry Barnowsky Inner circle Cooperstown, NY where bats are made from 4770 Posts
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Excellent advice from Kent especially about video. Mirrors are OK for practicing but to see what the effect is on the viewer, go with video. Also don't look into a monitor while videoing yourself. Look in the direction of your audience. If you use the video monitor as a crutch you won't be reproducing what it will look like when you don't have it and you are in front of a real audience. One weakness of video is it isn't 3D. Humans see our performances in 3D and having another magician view your performance is beneficial. And unless you are videoing with 3 cameras, you still will not be reproducing live performance images.
I agree with shorter routines and slowing down so the audience can appreciate the magic and let it register in their mind. I also agree with Kent about the cup through cup displays. Also the wand through cup. Why fool them into thinking the cups are gaffed. They shouldn't question that they are solid. Larry  |
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leomagnus Veteran user 303 Posts
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On 2012-03-11 11:17, kentfgunn wrote: Thanks for all of the great advice! I really appreciate it! -Leo |
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Donnie Buckley V.I.P. Cleveland, Ohio 1123 Posts
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Larry makes a good point about the limitations of video rehearsal.
Practicing your performance in front of a video camera will certainly improve your routine and get you to focus on the script and get you on the right path. I do feel it is absolutely necessary in developing an entertaing act, but... the all seeing eye of the camera will not teach you misdirection. Consider a master of misdirection like Tony Slydini - he didn't perfect his skills on camera. Misdirection can only be mastered in real life situations. If you are hoping to master a routine like Tommy Wonder's that relies heavily on misdirection, you need to know WHAT you are going to do and WHEN to do it. Working with video will give you the confidence you need for the WHAT (the moves, the words, the gestures, the eye contact and body language), but working with real people will give you the timing it takes (the WHEN) to take the risks that are required to get away with murder. And to me, there is a greater feeling of magic taking place when I realize (too late) I have been totally misdirected. |
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Dave V Inner circle Las Vegas, NV 4824 Posts
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They call the camera "The unblinking eye"
It will show a lot, but like Donnie says it can't convey the sense of misdirection. The human brain is a wonderful thing, able to filter out all the excess information and focus on what's important. It's our job to make the important visible and the sleights "invisible." That doesn't mean 100% hidden; a bad pass that "telegraphs" that a move was done, even though they didn't see the cards is far worse than a pass in full view while they are paying attention to something else. That's why Gazzo gets away with his loads. Looking on video, people see what's going on almost every time. In person, even in full view it slips right past them.
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Tom Fenton.jpg "View Profile") Inner circle Leeds, UK (but I'm Scottish) 1477 Posts
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In addition to the very fine advice offered in this thread, I would mention, looking at other effects to find what you can use or adapt for use.
For example, one of the vanishes I use is actually used by a well known magical entertainer to vanish a half dollar. Useful for variations and moving away from what others are doing.
"But there isn't a door"
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Donnie Buckley V.I.P. Cleveland, Ohio 1123 Posts
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On 2012-03-11 14:30, Dave V wrote: Principles of sound include "reception". The logic goes something like this: A tree falls in the woods. The sound wave created is received by the ear and a noise is heard. Theoretically, if the sound is not received, then no sound is made. This is "arguably" true because the reception is required to fulfill the requirements of sound. It is however a human conceit that if "no one" hears it, it doesn't make a sound (that the sound wave has to be received by a human for the tree to make a sound - when there are millions of living creatures in proximity to a tree that will receive the sound wave). But, the principle is a good analogy for invisibility (to the human eye): What is not seen IS invisible. Misdirection skills give you the power of invisibility. A Top Change is a good example of this. It's hardly even a sleight - it's so simple in concept. It's a bold move that, when executed at the proper time, is totally invisible. One of my favorite book tests to perform at home is Dr. Faust's Bold Book Test by David Hoy. I love it because it's impromptu and appears so clean and fair, but is really so dirty! It really fulfills the description of magic that Doc Sheils used when he said, "Magic is 'getting away' with stuff". |
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leomagnus Veteran user 303 Posts
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On 2012-03-11 15:45, Donnie Buckley wrote: EXACTLY! Fabulous post. I do a coin routine that at one point in the MIDDLE of the routine I'm got two coins in classic palm, on coin in finger palm, and I'm nonchalantly spinning the wand IN THE SAME HAND as though I've not a care in the world. The thing is, I'd never ever have touched this routine, if I'd seen it described in a book or something. I would have said "Ridiculous/Crazy, you couldn't ever get away with that in a real world situation." But you can. I saw a magician working this routine for REAL PEOPLE, and then I asked him to teach me it. Boy did I get a surprise when he showed me what he was getting away with. YOU'D BE SURPRISED WHAT YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH! -Leo |
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Ekuth Inner circle Floating above my 1538 Posts
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On 2012-03-10 16:37, JESmagic wrote: This is EXACTLY what I did when I learned the C&B. I've always felt that the effect itself it strong enough that final loads aren't really needed. And my audience has proved me right every time.
"All you need is in Fitzkee."
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts
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On 2012-03-12 18:54, Ekuth wrote: Are you saying you still don't use final loads? For those that have developed their routines without final loads, how did you finish your routine?
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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Posted: Mar 10, 2012 01:44 am 
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