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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The side walk shuffle » » Run in with the police last night... (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Chance
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Terrible analogy. Reckless endangerment is not a fill-in-the-blanks rule. You're obviously OK with living in a Nanny State. I'm not. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
ed rhodes
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I'm comfortable following rules (as long as the rule makers follow them too!) You obviously are enthralled with living up to your name and taking chances. Good for you. I have done that way back in my callow youth, it never ended well.
"There's no time to lose," I heard her say.
"Catch your dreams before they slip away."
"Dying all the time, lose your dreams and you could lose your mind.
Ain't life unkind?"
Chance
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I am neither callow nor young. If you call acting like I'm free in what is supposed to be the freest nation on Earth, then yes, I like taking chances.

If more buskers acted like me we wouldn't be having these discussions. But since they mostly act like you, we are.
mota
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The problem with police is they can do so much damage to your life and never be held responsible. As a result this type of work attracts males who are already on a power trip. If you get a bad magician nothng really happens to you...a bad cop can be a disaster. They have pepper spray, tasers, clubs and guns. Many of them like using them. For all practical purposes, just disagreeing with a cop is a crime.

Pretty much any cop can arrest you if they want to. It doesn't matter if the charge sticks, you still get the joy of the experience. The US Supreme Court just ruled that for any arrest, no matter how minor, they can strip search you.

I have had mostly good cops in my life. I have also seen a few bad cops...just bullies. I know a few who have framed people on major charges and allow violent crimes to go unchecked, just because they didn't like the guy.

Cops are best avoided whenever possible. If someone can tell me which are good and which are bad I'll reconsider that approach but until then I will live carefully.

What I see here is the guys with the most street time have different stories than those who mostly post and only go out once in a while. I don't mean that as an insult. Until you have had the joy of a power-mad cop in your life you won't understand.

It does little good to say most cops are good....they are but that does not help when you meet the bad one.
ed rhodes
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Quote:
On 2012-04-05 17:28, Chance wrote:
I am neither callow nor young. If you call acting like I'm free in what is supposed to be the freest nation on Earth, then yes, I like taking chances.

If more buskers acted like me we wouldn't be having these discussions. But since they mostly act like you, we are.


Chance my callow youth was many years ago. You want to be free? Be my guest. I am certain you are one of the sadly few people who knows how to act responsibly and take responsibility for what you do. But "free" does not equate with "anarchy." When people have to interact with each other, there has to be rules as to their behavior.

I'm sorry you see it as a "Nanny state."

I see handling a flammable substance in a crowded situation as perfectly befitting the concept of "reckless endangerment."
"Oh, let me do a flame eating act here on the beach. You have to take my work for it that I know what I'm doing, that the flammable substance won't burn me or anyone in my audience. That there's absolutely no chance of the container catching on fire or exploding. And if it does? So what? They came to see a fire eating act, they must have been willing to take the risks involved!" Never mind that Gene Simmons, a man who'd been trained by professional circus fire eaters, still managed to set himself on fire at least five times. And that was with all proper precautions and a fire crew standing by for exactly that purpose. Is your busker on the beach going to have that? I'm certain the crew running the Great White show thought; "We know what we're doing. We've done this a thousand times." Well, the thousand and first time caused the fourth deadliest nightclub fire in America killing about 96 people and maiming countless more.

I'm sorry you think trying to nip something like that in the bud constitutes a "Nanny State."
"There's no time to lose," I heard her say.
"Catch your dreams before they slip away."
"Dying all the time, lose your dreams and you could lose your mind.
Ain't life unkind?"
Chance
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I never said that. I said your comment about what a cops job is, is what leads to a nanny state. You are conflating statements from 2 or 3 different posts in you post above.

If you want to discuss open flames usage in a busking act, we can do that.

If you want to discuss what the police are actually allowed to do, we can to that.

If you want to discuss the merits of what constitutes a nanny state, we can do that too.
mota
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So it is anarchy is it? Seriously?

Busking fire eating on the beach is not the same as White Snake lighting off fireworks inside a closed building. Not a good example, not even relevant. When a fire eater burns down a beach I'll change my mind.

The example of Gene Simmons is a very good example, though. He understands the risks and chooses to go for it. He has a right to do that as long as he does not endanger anyone else. Outside this is not a problem. Indoors you could have a point but I don't think much of Chance's street busking is indoors.

So we have the term anarchy completely misused and a couple irrelevant examples.

Perhaps you could explain further how the police are protecting us from Chance's other street acts also. I understand he does escapes (and probably magic, though I don't know), human statue and balloons. I don't know what danger is posed to the public by escapes. Human statue is only a danger to the performer with all that skin painted over.

Wait...balloons...a kid under 3 might get one and choke on it. Better ban it.

The topic here is police over-stepping their power. When they stop a street performer they usually aren't trying to protect anybody. They just don't want THOSE people (you know...the homeless) bothering people with money or taking a dollar that might otherwise go to a local merchant. If you a street performer you are a bum in many cops eyes. Public safety has little or nothing to do with it when street performing is concerned.

I think I have seen this pattern before. In the late Robert Anton Wilson's book, "Prometheus Rising", he shows a cartoon with two babies and the two primal imprints. One baby is thinking, "Mommy hold me". The other is thinking, "It's fun to explore".

One wants a nanny state, the other wants freedom. Both have their place in the world and we need both types of people for society to function but I think the attitude of exploration and adventure is better for a street performer. The attitude of "protect me" is probably better suited for experiences other than street performing.

Edit added: I see Chance posted while I was writing...he was more succinct.
Devious
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Here is something to ponder, "What IF the street performer is also involved in law enforcement?"
Would you think any more or less of him? "What about his own dealings with the dichotomy?"
Devious Deceptions
"Gadol Elohai!"
L'Chaim!
Eric the Excellent
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Ed, I have backed off of this thread because it seems like is has just become a place to air their grievances towards policeman and although I do have a few I feel that this is not the time nor the place to air them, especially after Glenn was so polite.

However, in basically stating that I will catch myself on fire, burn my audience, and cause explosions, you sir are being impolite. Is fire-performance a specialty of yours? I get the distinct feeling that it isn't. May I ask (without being rude or overly prying) why you seem so dead set against fire acts?
Eric the Excellent
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Ed, I have backed off of this thread because it seems like is has just become a place to air their grievances towards policeman and although I do have a few I feel that this is not the time nor the place to air them, especially after Glenn was so polite.

However, in basically stating that I will catch myself on fire, burn my audience, and cause explosions, you sir are being impolite. Is fire-performance a specialty of yours? I get the distinct feeling that it isn't. May I ask (without being rude or overly prying) why you seem so dead set against fire acts?

(As an update: it turns out that another performer in town is friends with someone in the police department and I am hoping to meet with him, soon.)
Devious
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You have shown so much class and tact Eric.
It's hard to believe you use the term awful, after your name.
Devious Deceptions
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L'Chaim!
ed rhodes
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I think busking is a very loose area of entertainment. I doubt you have fire extinguishers and trained crew standing by as did Gene. I think dealing with flammable substances in crowds is a bad idea.

Chance, I'm sorry if I clouded the issue. But I don't agree that following rules leads to a "nanny state," I'm sorry that you appear to.
"There's no time to lose," I heard her say.
"Catch your dreams before they slip away."
"Dying all the time, lose your dreams and you could lose your mind.
Ain't life unkind?"
Eric the Excellent
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Devious, why thank you! If it helps, think of it as "awe-full" rather than "awful". ; )

Ed, earlier in the discussion I said that I had a fire extinguisher, a fire blanket, and water all nearby. I believe I said that sometime after you made the observation that I was not made of concrete. (Which is true enough, as I do not have the patience to be a living statue.) I may have neglected to mention it then, but the other magician who was accompanying me was also providing fire-watch. I am a professional and I conduct myself as such when performing, whether on stage or on the street.
ed rhodes
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I stand corrected. I didn't see references to fire control equipment. I'm certain anybody in your crowd who got set on fire will appreciate that you have the means to put them out. I still think fire in an semi-intimate setting as relates to busking is a mistake, but I acknowledge that you're dealing with the dangers.
"There's no time to lose," I heard her say.
"Catch your dreams before they slip away."
"Dying all the time, lose your dreams and you could lose your mind.
Ain't life unkind?"
Eric the Excellent
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And that is your opinion and you are welcome to it.

I take every precaution I can to make my performances safe. When I asked earlier if fire-performance was a specialty of yours, I did so in earnest because I wanted to know how best to address your concerns.

If you have little experience and are intrigued by the safety aspect of it, I highly encourage you to look into fire eating more thoroughly. You'll understand that the torches we use are smaller than most people expect, the fuels we use don't "splash" off our torches and are less hot and/or explosive than many people expect, and that we do not shoot fire out of our mouths. (Although I do perform fire breathing, I only do it in controlled venues.)

If you have experience in fire-performance, then we could get into the specifics of exactly what techniques I use at an up-close venue as opposed to a stage, the fire-team I have trained and how I have trained them, my exact fuel mixture, and my safety equipment.

I'm not here to argue. I only want to convince you (and anyone reading this) that fire acts are not nearly as bad as they are made out to be. (When they are performed responsibly, but that can be said of a lot of things.(
Chance
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Ed, the reality is that most buskers would agree with your comments of letting sleeping dogs lie. That "rules" should always be followed, and that if a policeman confronts you and tells you his "rules" for that day or that pitch, then you should blindly agree with them and comply, even if they are rules that you suspect violate your rights. 99% of all buskers reading this would agree with you that this is the smart way to go.

IMHO rights are worth fighting for, and we only lose them when we stop. People who react as you do to unlawful directives weaken the nation in general, and free speech rights in particular.

The pity is that you're getting miffed at me, when you should be geting miffed at the governmental intrusion we are discussing. I'm not the one keeping you down, I'm the guy trying to set you free. But you're so comfortable in your chains that you simply don't know any better. That's the real crime here, and it galls me to no end.

You can keep calling me names if you wish. Meanwhile, between the 2 of us, while you're constantly running from the fight, I am the one risking my personal safety, my family's well-being, and spending my hard-earned money to fight these battles on your behalf. You're Welcome.
ed rhodes
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I don't think I've called you any names. If I have, it was certainly unintentional and in the heat of the moment. I apologize retroactively.

Best of luck to you.
"There's no time to lose," I heard her say.
"Catch your dreams before they slip away."
"Dying all the time, lose your dreams and you could lose your mind.
Ain't life unkind?"
Hawkan
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Devious: I am a cop. I did busk part-time a couple of years ago (on my cop-work-free days and vacations) and had some encounters with my "colleagues" - who didn´t know me as a cop. Never had any problems, I did as they said when they had a right to ask me to move. And I didn´t have a problem when they were wrong and I explained it to them. Maybe it´s different in Sweden, I don´t know.

Hĺkan
:wavey:
Chance
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Yes, in Europe things are VERY different.
Surgei
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Quote:
On 2012-03-27 16:20, Ekuth wrote:
With that kind of an attitude, Adam- it's no wonder you've had difficulties with the police.

WHEN exactly did basic respect and civility fall to the wayside?

Let me put it another way:

He has a badge, gun, handcuffs and the right to use them as well as a working knowledge of the law.
You don't.

Might makes right. How many times do Police officers have to get in trouble across the board for you to realize that the many of the rules they try to enforce and the ways they enforce them are wrong? If you are not willing to wear the silver bracelets yourself perhaps you deserve the run around you get from the Police. If a cop or a city is wrong they are wrong. Evil triumphs when good men do nothing. I have yet to meet a police officer that knows more about the law then myself. I have only been arrested once. That officer is no longer a police officer, no she did not retire.
Quote:
Now, on an unrelated related note:
White gas and gasoline are the same thing. The only difference is the level of petroleum refinement.

This is about like saying that wheat and flower is the same thing the only difference is the level of refinement. One is explosive the other is not.


Glenn,
Are you familiar with Color of Law crimes. Just because a council passes and ordinance does not mean you must enforce it. Busker laws often violate federal statutes and you as the officer face the prison time not the council. When it comes to activities in the public forum, the best policy is to make sure no other laws are being broken and avoid the busker laws all together. There is not a judge in the country that would allow a jurisdiction to dismiss you for not enforcing an illicit ordinance. Pushing people around on the streets and sidewalks puts you in the category of scum, no matter what "job" you are doing.
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