|
|
|
|||
| Go to page 1~2 [Next] | ||||||||||
gdw Inner circle 4892 Posts 
|
Should you no longer perform material thought in them?
Just thinking from an IP stand point.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
|||||||||
LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts
|
How're they biting?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
|||||||||
|
gdw Inner circle 4892 Posts
|
???
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
|||||||||
slyhand Inner circle Good ole Virginia 1909 Posts
|
Lobowolf is wondering if anyone is going to take your bait at starting a controversy since this has been hashed over many times here.
Whatever the answer, you need to apply it to all books and DVDs. Not just magic ones. If you buy a book on gardening, woodworking, music, acting, all the books you purchased in college then sold. Should you not use that knowledge, perform that piece of music, use that special technique? Seems like I liked the look of the lure. BTW... IP = Internet Provider?
I am getting so tired of slitting the throats of people who say that I am a violent psychopath.
Alec |
|||||||||
|
Jim Sparx Inner circle Far Out, Texas 1144 Posts
|
Can you provide a link where this has been discussed? I have several advanced degrees, including a PhD, and this went over my head. Maybe I'm getting dumber as I grow older.
Et tu, Spartacus?
https://fineartamerica.com/profiles/chispadeelpaso.html |
|||||||||
|
The MailMan New user 11 Posts
|
This may sound like a silly question but what does having multiple degrees and a phd have to do with overlooking a post?
|
|||||||||
|
gdw Inner circle 4892 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2012-03-22 07:49, slyhand wrote: Yes, exactly what I'm asking. Not trying to start a controversy, but a conversation. Much of the basis for arguments for intelectual property would lead to the conclusion that you should not be able to use the information.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
|||||||||
|
slyhand Inner circle Good ole Virginia 1909 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2012-03-22 13:26, gdw wrote: Then would that not be true for every book you ever owned and then sold? What about the ones you donated, lost or threw away? I sold my copy of Royal Road to Card Magic. Am I morally or legally bound to never do a double lift because that's where I learned it? I paid for it. They got money for it. I should be able to do anything I want with the material I gleaned from it. The same goes for one trick DVDs. I paid for it which in turn they got paid for it. You could argue that if I sell it then that is taking away from a potential sale. Possibly, but more than likely not because the second buyer is cheap (frugal) and only buys second hand. Also that is one more person doing the trick and having others see it which could turn into a possible sale for the creator.
I am getting so tired of slitting the throats of people who say that I am a violent psychopath.
Alec |
|||||||||
|
gdw Inner circle 4892 Posts
|
Yes, it would be true for all. As I said, these would simply be the logical conclusions of the reasonings behind IP in the first place.
"You could argue that if I sell it then that is taking away from a potential sale. Possibly, but more than likely not because the second buyer is cheap (frugal) and only buys second hand. Also that is one more person doing the trick and having others see it which could turn into a possible sale for the creator." Those would be the same arguments for "sharing" it with those that would download it, and pay nothing.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
|||||||||
|
slyhand Inner circle Good ole Virginia 1909 Posts
|
However, your question is, should you perform anything after you have sold your copy of it.
What of my example of Royal Road to Card Magic? Should I not use anything I learned from it simply because I no longer own the book?
I am getting so tired of slitting the throats of people who say that I am a violent psychopath.
Alec |
|||||||||
|
gdw Inner circle 4892 Posts
|
That's what I'm asking.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
|||||||||
writeall Special user Midland, Michigan 930 Posts
|
You can sell the book, that's a material object, regardless of what it contains. A book is not information. A book is a thing and the rights go with it. The author doesn't have ownership on the memory of what you read either. When you sell the book, you no longer own the information it contained, and you don't. You simply own your memory of it -- the fidelity isn't the same. Just as I may be able to sing the lyrics of a song I heard on the radio but am not copying the song in any real sense.
You can perform it. You get that right when you buy the item. The performance is something you created, albeit based on what you've learned. You can't go out and show a performance of someone else (at least not for money) without permission, and you can't do the same with a book or DVD. What you can't sell is the information, outright. So, for example, I can't write down the methods and make another book to sell. If I alter it enough, I can. The "alter it enough" is something for a court to decide. You should note that intellectual property rights are about buying and selling a final product, not about keeping something secret just to keep it secret. The purpose of intellectual property rights is to incentivize innovation by allowing creators to collect "the full social value" of their creations. That's what drives the rules. One book sold and then resold is considered a derivative transaction and rights are transferred with the item. But, and here's where the rubber meets the road, someone other than the creator making money off the intellectual property is verboten. A good example would be Disney. They own the rights to Micky Mouse. You can buy a Micky doll or t-shirt and resell it. You could have the knowledge of Micky Mouse, even tell people about the mouse freely -- you just can't make money on the Mouse without getting into trouble. Actually, the making money part isn't set in stone. If you steal customers by copying and giving things away for free, you've stolen "virtual sales" and that still comes under the money rule, even though there's no money changing hands. |
|||||||||
|
slyhand Inner circle Good ole Virginia 1909 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2012-03-22 19:22, slyhand wrote: Quote:
On 2012-03-22 20:56, gdw wrote: I know. I gave you my opinion. I am asking for yours. Thank you.
I am getting so tired of slitting the throats of people who say that I am a violent psychopath.
Alec |
|||||||||
|
gdw Inner circle 4892 Posts
|
"A good example would be Disney. They own the rights to Micky Mouse. You can buy a Micky doll or t-shirt and resell it. You could have the knowledge of Micky Mouse, even tell people about the mouse freely -- you just can't make money on the Mouse without getting into trouble. Actually, the making money part isn't set in stone. If you steal customers by copying and giving things away for free, you've stolen "virtual sales" and that still comes under the money rule, even though there's no money changing hands."
And yet you can actually make money by reselling a Mickey Mouse doll.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
|||||||||
|
writeall Special user Midland, Michigan 930 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2012-03-23 18:00, gdw wrote: Yes, but you are selling something you own, a physical thing, in the same way I can buy and sell a house or anything. What I do not own, but have only purchased the rights to, is the idea of Micky Mouse, the intellectual property, the right to manufacture multiple copies and compete with the real IP owner. Perhaps that's the point that isn't being made clear in this discussion. What do you own outright and what have you only purchased the rights for? One way to think about it is that when you own something, you can destroy it. So, I can take that DVD from Sankey and grind it up in my chipper mower without consequences. I own that much. I cannot destroy the intellectual property nor my right to it in the same way. Arguably, Jay could destroy the IP that he hasn't sold yet by not selling any more. (OK, that came out a bit mangled, but there really is a distinction drawn between abstracts and physical goods.) |
|||||||||
|
stempleton Inner circle 1453 Posts
|
Writeall:
Even after all the posts about this matter, I have also had similar questions, and your explanations have been the clearest I've come across. Perhaps you can extend this talent to a couple of other situations I've pondered. I've never done this personally, but I have read that there is a provision in the law that allows you to make a "back up" copy of otherwise copy protected content (say, a DVD you purchased). Is this copy to be destroyed if you sell the DVD or whatever other material to another? Also, those DVD's that are purchased, only to find that the author/performer includes a stipulation that he/she does not grant performance rights (whether the buyer is given notice of this before purchase or not). I know this has been debated extensively, but honestly I've gotten so bogged down in the rhetoric that I've failed to fully understand. Thanks. Look forward to hearing your response. And I hope I have not derailed gdw's original query too much! |
|||||||||
|
gdw Inner circle 4892 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2012-03-23 19:42, writeall wrote: " intellectual property rights are about buying and selling a final product," Quote:
On 2012-03-23 19:42, writeall wrote: But he wouldn't be able to destroy the IP, especially to that which he has already sold. That information is already out there. Also, "rights" are not given. Rights stem from possession/ownership. If you can destroy the item you own, why can't you duplicate it?
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
|||||||||
|
gdw Inner circle 4892 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2012-03-23 07:26, slyhand wrote: Well, considering I have don't exactly accept the traditional view of "ip," you have no inherent obligation to disavow the information after you sell the book, particularly as you CAN'T, and so no obligation to refrain from performing it, unless you explicitly agreed otherwise.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
|||||||||
|
gdw Inner circle 4892 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2012-03-23 19:56, stempleton wrote: The entire idea of performance "rights," IMHO, is just as flawed, perhaps more apparently so, than IP as a whole. Once you give someone information, what right do you have to control what they do with it? With IP laws, the extension is control over your physical property, restricting what you can do with your disc and your computer, for example. With performance "rights" they are claiming control over what you can do with your own body. That's not to say you can't ask others don't perform something. You just have no right to stop them, at least not after showing them. If you don't want others performing your material, don't share it with them. Pretty simple. Like I said though, no reason you can't ask, and no reason you can't make explicit agreements and arrangements.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
|||||||||
|
writeall Special user Midland, Michigan 930 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2012-03-23 19:56, stempleton wrote: According to the US Copyright office, you have to destroy any copies when you sell the original. This applies specifically to computer software, but I think you could argue the ethics would be the same elsewhere. From their site, about backup copies: * the new copy is being made for archival (i.e., backup) purposes only; * you are the legal owner of the copy; and * any copy made for archival purposes is either destroyed, or transferred with the original copy, once the original copy is sold, given away, or otherwise transferred. (see: http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-digital.html ) Quote:
Also, those DVD's that are purchased, only to find that the author/performer includes a stipulation that he/she does not grant performance rights (whether the buyer is given notice of this before purchase or not). I know this has been debated extensively, but honestly I've gotten so bogged down in the rhetoric that I've failed to fully understand. I don't know. My guess is that "standard expectations" would apply. When I buy a product that is sold in the same way as others in its class, I have a certain set of reasonable expectations about it. For example, if I buy a newspaper, I expect I will be allowed to cut out the coupons and use them. If a seller intends to modify this, I think they would be required to explain before purchase how they have altered the equation. If they don't, I think you have good grounds for a refund -- after all, you bought something with an implied function (the ability to perform it) and didn't receive that. But I can't think of another real world example. Maybe DVD's that aren't encoded for the region they are being sold in would fit. You buy a DVD, expecting to be able to play it on your DVD player, but the encoding is incompatable. I'd have to check to see if they mention the encoding going in or not. ON the performance rights in magic DVDs, my guess is that it is an area awaiting clarification by the courts. Someone would have to break the deal and perform it and then get sued. There are a lot of iffy things like this that you can't sort out until some court rules on it. I'm not a lawyer, but I find legal opinions from judges very interesting reading. They are usually very logical and try hard to link to previous understandings of the law. When you here about a controversial ruling that seems capricious, take some time and look it up. I think you'll find, even if you disagree with the decision, that the court has thought it through and offers a thorough explanation. |
|||||||||
| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Selling used magic books and DVDs (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
| Go to page 1~2 [Next] | ||||||||||
Posted: Mar 22, 2012 02:17 am 
| [ Top of Page ] |
|
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2026 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.06 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
|
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < 
|