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Todd Robbins V.I.P. New York 2922 Posts |
There have been some threads in another forum vanish, perhaps because they were off topic for that forum. I post this to move the discussion to this more appropriate area.
It’s funny that 30 years ago an unknown Penn & Teller fabricated that they were “The bad boys of magic” and were reviled by other magicians. The fact was that very few in the magic community knew who they were. The public was intrigued by their claim and Penn & Teller’s fame grew. It is ironic that the magic community bought into it and made their stance come true. Early on in their careers a magician, filled with rage, came up to Penn and asked, “Whose side are you on?” Penn answered, “The audience’s” and the public has thanked them ever since. I find all this Penn & Teller bashing old, tired and sad. Sad, because it is being done by some very good people. Jim Callahan has created some wonderful performance pieces. Some of the video segments I’ve seen of him are original, engaging and often exquisite. His presence on the TV show Phenomenon was about the only watchable thing on that show. If everyone participating on that program was on the level of the life Jim that brought to it, then that show would have been a huge hit. I was happy to try and assist Jim in trying to find someone in the entertainment industry that could take the attention Jim was getting on that show and do something greater with that notoriety. On a side note, I’m sorry that Jim didn’t come to see Play Dead when he was in NYC. I would have loved to have dinner afterwards and discuss the show and many other things. I hope we have the chance to do that one day. And from the limited contact I have with his performance, I feel Slim King has a distinctive talent. Some of the radio clips I have heard have a brilliance about them in the way Slim can take something simple and whip it up into something very effective. It reminds me very much of Dunninger. I have never experience his Roshambo work, but from what I understand, it’s stunning. I am not surprised by this. What does surprise me is when magicians, because of a myopic point of view or personal agenda, don’t appreciate Penn & Teller. Penn & Teller are two of the most brilliant creative artists, performing artists and businessmen that I have ever met. As a matter of fact, I can’t think of anyone that function on as high a level in these three areas as these two. A LOT can be learned from studying the success of Penn & Teller, even if the choices they have made are not to your personal taste. But some people don’t get it, and never will. And that saddens me. |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
It saddens me that you feel this way.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Todd Robbins V.I.P. New York 2922 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-04-22 09:31, Pakar Ilusi wrote: Proof of concept. |
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
I know you are a great performer, Todd, and I respect your work
and your opinions. No more than a semi-professional and part time magician, I am successful in my own right and in my chosen profession. Management by results has been my approach, so I quite naturally put it to your premise. Unfortunately, for me it does not hold up. One could bring out the good qualities and winning personality of Al Capone, but when you look at the results you see the truth. Please don't get caught up in the hyperbole of my analogy, it is merely illustrative. Penn and Teller lost me on their China tour DVD, where they blatantly disclosed exactly how a thumb tip works, up to and including providing one for each of the hundreds of spectators along with a silk so they could video all of them doing the trick. Blatant exposure of a magic secret. I won't bore you or anyone else with going on and on, but the list is rather,well, sad. And now, Teller is taking another magician to court for infringing on his "Shadows" trick. Hypocritical to my mind. Not on board with your "concept", Todd. Guess I am one of those people who "never get it, and never will". I agree that "Penn & Teller are two of the most brilliant creative artists" - along the lines of Bernie Madoff... Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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sacramentohypnosis New user America 78 Posts |
Given that he has hardly any chance of winning such a copyright case, one has to consider
that when insitigating such (which news reports around the world say he has) a major expense is incurred.. This is a gamble in any legal proceedings, but here the considered opinion of many legal experts and barristers with copyright experience (simply search google for their comments on this) idicate they pretty much think he is fighting alosing battle? So why would anyone throw good money at a losing battle?? Well all I would say is look at all the PUBLICTY that doing such has already got for him (and Penn and Tellers show as a result) and work out how much that kind of exposure would cost to buy.. most likely far more than instigating some court papers for something you know deep down you have next to no chance of winning anyway.. You may well find that this falls into the category of make the best of every opportunity available and get the maximum media exposure at lowest cost possible... |
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Todd Robbins V.I.P. New York 2922 Posts |
Jim,
I'm sorry but if you had only posted the first few lines of the final paragraph, you would have a stronger argument for your position. |
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Todd Robbins V.I.P. New York 2922 Posts |
I'm not sure there is anything to lose for Teller on this. Even if the court case can not be won, the publicity from this has made the facts of the situation clear to the public.
And yes, the exposure (pun intended) does have the potential to sell tickets to Penn & Teller's show at the Rio All Suite Hotel & Casino in Las Vegas Nevada. (Just doing what I can towards that goal too.) The only real downsize is that the publicity also lets hack magicians around the world know where they can buy a rip-off of one of Teller's great routines. Quote: On 2012-04-22 11:21, sacramentohypnosis wrote: |
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illusiontech Loyal user Las Vegas 210 Posts |
I worked with Teller, Todd, and Johnny Thompson on "Play Dead." I have also worked with many of the top Professional magicians and illusionists throughout my career. I have to say that Teller has such a respect for magic that he would never do it any harm and Johnny Thompson would never let him! ALL of the professional magicians I have worked with and continue to work with respect Teller and know what a true genius he is. His understanding of magic is far superior to many of the magicians I have come in contact with, including some of the top professionals.
Hands down, the best project so far I have worked on in my 30+ year career is "Play Dead" Teller's drive, attention to detail, and love for magic are magnanimous. Teller had so much respect for the cast and crew, treated us like gold, and worked harder than all of us put together. Over a year of my life was eating, sleeping, and breathing "Play Dead." I spent much time with Teller including many one on one sessions either having lunch or tweaking ALL of the details in the show. He is a mentor, confidant, and now a friend of mine. It is unfortunate that some of you will never understand Teller; but when you only read books, watch videos, practice a little and go to a regular day job, rather than giving your life up for magic, it is not difficult for me to see why. Even some of my first year Tannen's Magic Campers, get it, but that is because their eyes and minds are open and they have not become jaded and jealous. Vinny Giordano |
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Todd Robbins V.I.P. New York 2922 Posts |
Vinny,
There are magicians that see some of the routines of Penn & Teller, think they see blatant exposure (often when there is no exposure) and because to them exposure is such a black and white issue, miss the point of the piece. It's funny in that the general public get it, but magicians often do not. This story about Teller vs. the Dutch magician is not about Teller trying to prevent exposure of his routine. It is about trying to stop someone from copyright infringement. The exposure side of it comes from the Dutch magician's demand that if Teller doesn't pay him off, he will just expose the trick. And that reeks of blackmail. Why magicians are happy about copyright infringement and blackmail is a mystery to me. |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-04-22 12:12, illusiontech wrote: You assume much. How do you know the people on the other side of the argument don't work as hard as you do? Or that we don't give up our lives to Magic? Why do you assume that? Just because we don't put Penn & Teller on your pedestal? Of course once you work with him, you develop a bond. I've developed bonds with great people. It does not make the things they do wrong, if any, go away.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
You know, Todd, you are correct and I agree with you. If I could take it back, I would do so. I appreciate your gentle admonition...
Jim Quote: On 2012-04-22 11:21, Todd Robbins wrote:
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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SWNerndase Regular user 168 Posts |
I don't hold the view, apparently shared by many here, that Penn and Teller are bad for magic. The topic of their so-called exposure of magic secrets has been discussed at length, and it seems to me that no one ever changes their view. So I'm going to leave that aside, but will say for the record I believe they have been and continue to be great for magicians and the art of magic.
The idea of someone taking, copying, and offering to sell to others, Teller's signature effect is appalling. Even if their detractors were 100% correct, and P&T were guilty of exposing magic secrets--a view, as I said before I don't share--I would still say this is patently and unforgivably wrong. And I am surprised that some of my fellow magicians, especially those who are angry at P&T for perceived exposure, would support and even gloat over such reprehensible actions. It's disappointing that those who are most vehemently vocal about P&T's exposure aren't equally offended at this. It strikes me as hypocritical to believe that our secrets are valuable, and worth protecting--unless the secret belongs to Teller. I, for one, hope Teller prevails. SWN |
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
Todd,
While I understand where you're coming from, I think Penn & Teller are more than a little happy to have the reputation for being the Bad Boys of magic. And, in order to get that reputation, they've got to **** a few magicians off. As a result, it's not really surprising that... they'd end up with a few ****ed-off magicians.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Todd Robbins V.I.P. New York 2922 Posts |
The Bad Boys of Magic was always a marketing ploy. It has never been their intent to anger members of the magic community. That is of no concern to them. They have a great respect for magic, have many magician friends and but really don't care one way or the other about their standing or reputation in the magic community. They have always, and will always, do what they need and want to do. It is there standing and reputation with the public at large that matters most. And what is important to the public at large and what is important to the magic community are often two very different things.
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
Todd,
Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking them. I used to have mixed feelings about them, but I don't anymore. However, you have to admit that in their marketing of themselves as the Bad Boys of Magic, and in revealing certain magic principles to the larger public, that it only makes sense that they'd alienate a non-negligible portion of the magic community. And it seems to have worked, both in terms of their marketing, and in terms of their tenable relationship with other magicians.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Todd Robbins V.I.P. New York 2922 Posts |
Oh I admit they have ruffled more than a few feathers in the magic community, but that is just a by-product, side benefit or collateral damage (depending on how you look at it) of what they have done for the public. A magician's standing in the magic community, whether good or bad, means little when it comes to tickets to sell to the public. And when you have 700 seats, five nights a week, 44 weeks a year, it means even less. As I stated before, the bad boys of magic was a myth they created to gain attention for what they did when no one knew who they were. It worked, and then they let they material define who they are.
I also acknowledge that what they do is not to everyone's taste. That's fine...and the way it should be. |
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Donal Chayce Inner circle 1770 Posts |
Penn and Teller are artists of the first order.
Would that there were more magicians like them. Magic might command greater public respect as both an art form and as sophisticated entertainment. |
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longhaired1 Veteran user Salida 316 Posts |
When people become entrenched in their position, nothing will change their minds. The goal of a discussion at that point becomes proving our position is correct, and not a quest for the truth. The more one is exposed to P&T's body of work, the greater a likelihood one will embrace, or at least open one's mind to, Todd's position on the matter.
Like many magicians, I was very upset at what P&T were doing when I first heard of them, or more precisely, what I had heard they were doing. But I happen to be one of those strange people who, before making a bold stance on a subject, actually wants to see things for myself and make my own judgements. The turning point for me, and the night I became a huge fan of P&T, was the night I saw their full evening show at Ballys in Las Vegas. What I found to be true was expressed very well by Max Maven in an online discussion we participated in more than 20 years ago: "Contrary to what you might expect, there are sequences with great depth, passion, and even parts that are uplifting.". Anyone who wants to be a truly effective and pursuasive critic of something should expose themselves thoroughly to the subject. The more evangelical among refuse to do this because, among other reasons, their minds may be changed in the process. Mine certainly was. |
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Todd Robbins V.I.P. New York 2922 Posts |
The reason I have posted this thread is because too many magician dismiss Penn & Teller out of hand. If someone doesn’t like them, that’s fine. But for their dismissal to be valid, I ask that this person fully understand who Penn & Teller are and why they do what they do. And this goes not only for Penn & Teller, but all performers. It’s important to avoid easy knee jerk reactions.
What I like best about Penn & Teller is that they have made choices as performers. And these choices come from who they are as people and how they view and what they think of the world around them. These choices are never just based upon “this will fool them” or “this will get laughs and applause.” And they have never generated material with the intent of angering other magicians. And because these choices are very personal, there has been a consistency to their work for the last 35 years. Their success has been based upon this consistency. Some might not like the choices they have made, but it is important to understand these choices before disliking them. |
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-04-27 00:54, longhaired1 wrote: "Entrenched" goes both ways. You can not judge P&T by going to a performance any more than you can judge a politician by one speech. I have watched my share of their work and, while much of it is no doubt far, far superior to that of those who laud them, much is also on the backs of giants and is, in my opinion, exposure plain and simple.
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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